[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 27

Sat Apr 23 16:10:19 CDT 2011

Dear Karabi,

I did not know the HEDON database, actually, this is pretty much what we
have been looking for! Great work. It has the display I was imagining, with
the search box and its scrolling menus allowing one to choose the desired
characteristics of the stove. The database is big with 404 stoves, and quite
a lot of info on each one of them. And there is a map! We won't have to
reinvent the wheel finally...
A few remarks:
- I find the database not very visible on the HEDON website
- some stoves are missing, several institutional stoves per example
- it is not possible to search stoves per materials. Like all metal stoves.
- there are no links to stoves of the same family, to different version of
the stoves
- 30 year-old designs neighbour new designs, which are the result of several
improvements 
- a clear differentiation should be made between traditional and improved
stoves, or some kind of warning could be given on the page of a unefficient
traditional stove saying that it doesn't ensure an economic and healthy
cooking
- there should be links to articles on the projects where the stove was
disseminated
- it would be good to be able search, or to rank the stoves per efficiency.
The problem is: protocols and test conditions that lead to these results
were different from one stove to another. It is tricky sometimes to value
one over another since it is not known how they would have performed under
exactly the same test. Perhaps the short list mentioned above would be
enough?
- there are many stoves in the database, I think there should be a short
list with the stoves which have been elected the best of their kind.

I am still searching for an open-source design of an efficient metal
charcoal stove for households. I wasn't able to find anything satisfactory
from my previous searches on internet, I didn't know the HEDON database by
that time.
Searching on the database, I found 68 stoves! Narrowing this research to the
stoves I found suitable for our project, I ended up with 21 stoves. Contact
information was available for most of the stoves, but there was often only a
physical address. I could find detailed plans for the Anila stove only. So I
had to search on the web. I did not find any detailed technical info.

My point is that there is a lot of info on internet, especially on HEDON,
bioenergylists, and a few documents from the GIZ. But is this information
usable? Often it is not. What we learn is that there are a lot of stoves in
the world, of many different shapes. Some are good, some are not. There were
successful projects. This is what we learn. But how to build these stoves?
How to contact the people who built them? Which ones of the stoves
outperform the many others? All that questions are pending.
As a small entrepreneur, once I defined the market I want to impact, the
goals I want to reach, and the kind of product I will produce, I am likely
to choose a handful of stoves to compare them and make my final choice. I'll
need to find technical information, build them, test them, compare them, see
what is their acceptance by people. In my case, I am lacking charcoal
stoves.

To Jan,
I came across this document, already a bit old, from the former GTZ on the
web:
http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/en-stove-images3-1995.pdf 
Here the situation is similar: many stoves are described, there is contact
info, which is good, but no info on how to build them and, actually too much
choice. No selection, no classification has been made among all these
models.

I am not blaming anyone, HEDON and the other organisations have limited
workforce and funding to dedicate to stoves indexation. I guess they can
have sometimes as much difficulties to gather information from the projects,
when the project responsibles are perhaps no more in charge, when contact
info has been lost, when no test results and no technical info are
available, etc.

I don't know if it has been done, but why not make a "call for plans" to
stovers, where every stove designer would be asked to send detailed building
instructions of his/her stove, so it can appear in the database? Why not
give the possibility to search stoves where plans are available in the
database? Why not propose a vote to HEDON members, or to the bioenergylists
members, to elect the best: wood stove, charcoal stove, institutional stove,
TLUD stove, etc?

What I'd like to see is a very user-friendly tutorial, let's say on the home
page of the Global Alliance website, which is oriented to a large audience
of non-initiated people. On the main page, a button like "Get started with
your cookstove project" which would propose a step-by-step tutorial. I
remember on HEDON a very good tutorial from I think the GTZ Probec with
advices on every aspect of a cookstove project design. Some of them were
gold, and with very concrete examples. So this tutorial would be displayed,
plus a link to the HEDON database, and to a list of the elected best
cookstoves in each category, with plenty of info, among which contacts, and
plans of course. All the necessary info accessible in a few clicks.

Regards,

Xavier

-----Original Message-----
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Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 27

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: An Application of the Anderson TLUD stove in USA - and
      maybe making electricity (Ray Menke)
   2. Re: An Application of the Anderson TLUD stove in USA - and
      maybe making electricity (Thomas Reed)
   3. Re: Country by Country Project List? (Xavier Brandao)
   4. Re: Country by Country Project List? (karabi_d .)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:02:35 -0500
From: Ray Menke <ray.menke at gmail.com>
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1 at verizon.net>,	Discussion of biomass
	cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] An Application of the Anderson TLUD stove in USA
	- and maybe making electricity
Message-ID: <BANLkTinkCZPq-ha0Mxp0RdH+TMgDi0Tm_Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Paul S. Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
wrote:

> Have you been sun-drying your saved charcoal before storage? ?How much
time
> needed for drying.
Yes, I leave the charcoal from the stoves in various pans outdoors
until I have a wheelbarrow full, and then it goes into the barrels.
(Sometimes I screen it again if I need some more for the almost done
compost pile.)  When I run the "Anila Inspired" retort, I leave the
charcoal inside the outer chamber for at least two days, and then
unload/reload the retort.  The removed charcoal is cold, but I leave
it outside in a steel container for another week before I store it in
the barn.
I believe the last time it rained (for real) was sometime in 2010.
(We are in an extreme drought.)
>
> We are interested in your char-gasifier for making kinetic energy (engines
> and gensets). ?Are you on the Gasification Listserv? ?What is your
timetable
> for activities?
Yes, I monitor the professionals on the Gasification Listserv.  I post
on the Yahoo Woodgas Group periodically about stoves, and also the
Victory Gasworks site.  The All Power Labs (GEK) site is a wealth of
information.  I have purchased some flat plasma cut material from Jim
Mason at APL that I TIG welded into Cyclones and Blowers.  My
experimental gasifier is a copy of one built/designed by Luc Gosselin
and described and demonstrated in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3prbsBdYi0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
This video shows his gasifier running a 6.5 hp engine powering a log
splitter.  Luc is using pellets, but I want to use char and pencil
sized wood several inches long.  I have not fired the gasifier yet,
even though that was my plan for early spring of 2011.  Looking at my
work list, all other jobs, except the gasifier, have been completed.
My timetable is flexible..being retired, etc.
My projects and their blogs for 2010 can be found here:
http://www.solarfire.org/Texas-2010
where I show the construction of a solar concentrator for cooking and
especially baking.  (Check out the Angel Food Cake at the end of the
first blog.)  The concentrator does a very good job of drying wood for
the wood gas stoves!  One of my 2011 projects for the Solarfire.org
site is to show the use of efficient wood gas stoves to use for
cooking/baking when the sky is overcast.  I also plan to build another
retort to place at the focal point of the solar concentrator (3kw peak
at 950?C), but I am not sure how to handle the gas and tars..perhaps
wood vinegar?
In the meantime, whenever I have a few spare moments, I've been
sitting at a chopping block preparing future gasifier fuel, and then
using the junk wood, slices of cardboard and small pieces bark for
cooking with the wood gas stoves.
I have been told that preparing wood is a mindless activity, but I
find it relaxing..(wife compares it to knitting.)

-- 
Ray? Menke

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:39:24 -0400
From: Thomas Reed <tombreed2009 at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
	<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] An Application of the Anderson TLUD stove in USA
	- and maybe making electricity
Message-ID: <BANLkTin=vj0kj6i1QdxZiM+oM14f0sApNA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Ray and All:

Lucky you, living in Texas where Mesquite is a weed.  I read that the lignin
content of most wood is 15-25%, but that Mesquite is 64%.  I know everything
in Texas is bigger and better, but 3 times more?  Since the lignin in wood
is the precursor to the charcoal yield, I wonder if there are any other "off
the chart" lignin woods.

Tom Reed    BEF

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Paul S. Anderson
<psanders at ilstu.edu>wrote:

> Dear Ray and all,
>
> You have substantial practical experience with TLUD gasifier stoves, AND
it
> is in the USA/developed world.  Highly unusual, and so we appreciate your
> telling us your experiences.
>
> Please consider preparing some report with photos, etc that can be posted
> at the Stoves website via Tom Miles.
>
> Have you been sun-drying your saved charcoal before storage?  How much
time
> needed for drying.
>
> We are interested in your char-gasifier for making kinetic energy (engines
> and gensets).  Are you on the Gasification Listserv?  What is your
timetable
> for activities?
>
> This topic is important to Stoves Listserv because when the stove produces
> the fuel (charcoal) that can give CLEAN (minimal filtering) gases for
> running gensets and pumps, then remote villages could get critical
> electricity because of shifting their type of cookstove.
>
> Thanks for your fine efforts!!!!!!
>
> Paul
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Known to some as:  Dr. TLUD    Doc    Professor
> Phone (USA): 309-452-7072   SKYPE: paultlud   Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf   (Best ref.)
>
>
> Quoting Ray Menke <ray.menke at gmail.com>:
>
>  Thanks for the comments.  I will put a note in the video description
>> area correcting the definition of TLUD.
>> I have been experimenting with about ten different wood gas stoves,
>> and always dump the char into the bucket of water.  Usually, I pour
>> the liquid with the pieces of char into another bucket with a screen
>> over the top to catch any pieces larger than about 1 cm.  This second
>> bucket with the fines and ashes gets tossed on the compost pile (six
>> dump truck loads of chips mixed with cow manure).  I save the larger
>> pieces of char in large barrels and sacks in my barn for future use in
>> some larger gasifiers (for ten hp engines) that I have been building
>> on for some time.
>> Some of these chunks of char are used in cooking tasks where I want to
>> simmer rather than boil the food.
>> However, since I have a good supply of hardwood (Mesquite) I probably
>> use less than 1% of my char for cooking.  Perhaps 25% ends up in the
>> compost pile(s), and the remainder is stored in the barrels and sacks.
>>  (estimated half a dozen 55 gallon (200 liter) barrels.)
>> Last year, I built my version of the Anila stove using a 20# propane
>> bottle.  I guess it might be called a retort!  It makes large amounts
>> of beautiful charcoal from larger hunks of hardwood, while burning the
>> pyrolytic gas under a very large pot or pressure cooker.  My goal with
>> this retort was to make high grade charcoal while making complete use
>> of the flame for cooking, and producing no visible smoke.  It uses a
>> ten dollar ceiling fan speed control to vary the amount of forced air.
>>  It works very well, but has too much ?firepower? for normal cooking
>> for two old retired people.  (It will work well to reduce large
>> amounts of cooked tomatoes into tomato paste.)  I keep this high grade
>> charcoal separate from the finer char produced by the cook stoves.
>> My Woodgas Campstove XL gets used about 60% of the time because I have
>> a pot shroud that fits around the stove and the pot that makes it very
>> efficient, especially when there is wind.  I don?t get much char from
>> this stove because I use it for things like rice and beans that need
>> longer cooking times, with low heat toward the end.  I have hardwired
>> an old waterproof flashlight equipped with two D cells into the fan,
>> and I use the flashlight switch to run the fan.  (After several
>> hundred uses, the factory installed connector got so loose the fan did
>> not run all the time.)  I let the fan run until the stove completely
>> cools down, after dumping the char and ash into the bucket.
>> I am saving the char and charcoal because it is used in the starting
>> of engine grade gasifiers.  It can also be used in the gas filtering
>> stages.  Also, once I have converted the wood into char, the
>> sub-tropical bugs stop digesting it...
>> As you probably saw on the evening news, there are many large
>> wildfires destroying houses and vast amounts of rangeland here in
>> Texas.  All open fires are banned, with large fines and the
>> possibility of two years jail time for violators.  So, for the time
>> being, I have shut down my outdoor kitchen...waiting (with my cows)
>> for rain (and grass).
>>
>> Ray
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 1:11 AM,  <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Ray
>>>
>>> It does show that TLUD devices don't have the problems which people
>>> expect
>>> from a simple batch burn and I see you do add fuel from the top. The
>>> acronym actually stands for Top Lit Updraught Stove rather than the top
>>> loaded you comentry implies.
>>>
>>> You say you use the char saved at the end of each run for cooking and
>>> gardening, any idea what proportions for each use and an estimate of
>>> production from your ~900 burns?
>>>
>>> AJH
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ray  Menke
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
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>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
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>
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>
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>

-- 
Dr. Thomas B. Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
The BioChar Engineering Corporation
www.WoodGas.com
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:46:17 +0200
From: "Xavier Brandao" <xvr.brandao at gmail.com>
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Country by Country Project List?
Message-ID: <4daf7069.cafdd80a.562d.498f at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Dear Jan and Tom,

"Frank's suggestions are ambitious."
It's good to see far away, this is strategic planning. That doesn't mean
we'll do it right away. In time, all that info can be gathered, but one step
at a time.

"We need to figure out who we know, at the Alliance or at a University
Geography Department, Atmospheric Science Department/ Global Health
Department, ETHOS, etc who might be persuaded to take this on."
I suggest that if no one in the list is in relation with the Alliance, nor
knows anyone at the Alliance, we contact them. But we have first to shape a
project and make propositions, and know what we want from them.

"In the meantime, is it too big a project to start pooling the information
we currently have?"
I don't think it is but I also don't think the priority is to start
collecting. First, we need to make the "skeleton" of this list, the empty
cells that can be filled. And know how we will organise what we'll collect.
The info is already on the web, we will be able to collect it. Like Tom
said, it is on bioenergylists and HEDON, the GIZ, the Charcoal Project,
perhaps The Global Alliance have also info. But our job now is to find what
info is important, what is the order of importance, and a way to display it
so it's easy to use, and it even attracts newcomers.
We also need to define the next steps, so to do project planning.

" I've just observed over the years that waiting for someone else to do
something rarely seems to get it done."
Ahaha, clearly! That is my golden rule: always assume people won't do it, so
do it yourself if it has not been done already.

"Maybe make a country by country spread sheet that people could add to on
the stovelist? (I have no idea how that could be done technically.)"
This, I think, is a second project, see below. But we could put the
categories and organise the spreadsheet and use it for the first project
also mentionned below? We could use Google documents, it is a quite
practical mean to share a document everyone can contribute to and modify. I
don't know any other. The only thing is that you need to register an email
account.

"Great idea but who will do it and how do you fund it?"
Now everyone seems to agree that we should ask politely the Global Alliance
:) Basically what we will be doing is lobbying. We stove people want the
political (or not?) actors to consider our interests (which fortunately
rejoins the public interest), so we submit our ideas and propositions to
them. So that is why we need a lot of (influent) people working with stoves
saying: "stove projects need such a centralised database".

"Since nothing will happen very quickly with the Alliance don't expect
things to happen overnight."
This is why now is the right time to start.

This is how I see it, there are in fact two projects:
- the first project is to define what type of info on cookstoves should be
gathered, and how to "show it to the world". It is also to find the right
organisation, the right people, the right funding. This is up to stovers of
the stovelist. This project is about, to say it metaphorically, making a
structure of communication, making an empty table with the categories, with
empty cells.
- the second job is about filling this empty table. The "table" would be
handed out to people with IT workforce and funds, let say the Global
Alliance if they do accept the job and if it concords with their objectives.
They will gather all info on: bioenergylist, HEDON, The Charcoal Project,
the GIZ and other organisation databases, and do the code on their website
so our ideas can come to life. Since they will be hosting our "table", it
will become their table, it is to expect they'll make changes, but I think
we all work towards the same goal. Their table could and should be
participative, so experts from all around the world could add their info.
Info should be sourceable of course.

The steps for "our" first project:
- see who is interested in working on this project/has knowledge and
experience/knows the right people that could contact the Global Alliance
- find the way to work together. A spreadsheet on google docs is not bad,
any other idea?
- gather ideas and make a pre-project, not too detailed, contact the Global
Alliance or the appropriate organisation and submit it to them. Tell them
what we want from them.
- if they accept it, give the pre-project more details and hand it out to
them
- the second project starts, and is not, at least not entirely, in our
hands.

What is your opinion about that?

I started a spreadsheet on Google documents where I put my ideas mentionned
above. So we can share ideas in one place. You can access it here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AprmmRmIsdlndGNoTXVmZkV2YjcyRnhmNFN
zMlRvU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNW8hJcJ 
Don't hesitate to add/modify things everyone, perhaps you know a better way
to share info and work together, or perhaps you want to start another and
better spreadsheet than mine we would work on.

Cheers,

Xavier 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 19:31:43 +0530
From: "karabi_d ." <karabi_d at sify.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
	<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Country by Country Project List?
Message-ID: <BANLkTimrVEmZvAFWsxbkN5xoaWBnJBN8Zg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi Jan,

You will find a wonderful database of cooking stoves in the HEDON website.
The stoves may be searched by country, fuel, application and type.

  http://www.hedon.info/Stoves+Database

Best Wishes,
Karabi
--------
-- 
*Karabi DUTTA PhD*

Regional Coordinator- Asia | *HEDON Household Energy Network*
**
*M: +*91 09371051622 | *Skype:* karabi_d
*Website*: support.hedon.info *| Online platform:* www.hedon.info
Visit our online journal *Boiling
Point*<http://www.hedon.info/BoilingPoint>| Consult our
*Stoves database* <http://www.hedon.info/stoves+database>

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Jan Bianchi <janbianchi at comcast.net>wrote:

>  I?m new to this website and am wondering if anyone aware of a
> country-by-country summary of clean cookstove projects in the developing
> world?  I don?t see one on the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves
website
> which is where I thought it would be.
>
>
>
> I?m particularly interested in finding out what clean cookstove projects
> have been undertaken or are currently being undertaken in Mozambique,
Angola
> or Sao Tome and Principe.   I know Crispin has been involved in Mozambique
> with a ceramic stove and an organization called Greenlight isalso working
> there.  Is anyone aware of any others?
>
>
>
> My question for Crispin is what is the argument for promoting ceramic
> stoves versus more durable ones?  Is it primarily cost?  What is the
> difference in cost?
>
>
>
> Jan Bianchi
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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>
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> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 27
*************************************