[Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latest imprecise reporting of facts (rongretlarson at comcast.net)

Xavier Brandao xvr.brandao at gmail.com
Sun Jul 24 17:31:55 CDT 2011


Dear Ron and stove list,

 

Sorry, this will also be my last post on the subject on the stove list, but I just wanted to be a bit more explicit: I was referring to large SHS, let’s say from 30-50kW to more than 120kW. I am not including small SHS, like 7kW PV systems. Solar lanterns, solar cell phone and radio recharge are SHS after all,  and they are very good and handy. There are great products now (Greenlight Planet, Barefoot, Toughstuff) and people love them. Plus they are affordable.

To be specific, what I do not believe in is the use of big SHS to a rural electrification purpose. A widespread adoption is difficult. For people will need to rent them, and the business model would be a fee-for-service model. I do not believe in such a model with SHS.

Here’s the hopefully working link to the document :

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZUxju9fX8LKR8n2yikfQ9E-A2OtHzvhgQmysBpiPIc/edit?hl=en_US

 

I do believe in small SHS for lighting and some stuff, and power plants for communal and productive use of electricity. Small production of electricity by stoves, why not? Perhaps stovers would end up with the same debate as the biochar: stove energy for cooking only or stove energy for cooking plus electricity?

At first, we wanted to sell stoves and solar lanterns to rural areas in Benin, we thought they went great together and would solve most of the energy problems. Now we want to sell stoves to urban areas, but we only produce institutional stoves at the moment.

 

I’d be happy to discuss this topic further by email if some people want to.

 

Thanks,

 

Xavier

 

De : rongretlarson at comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net] 
Envoyé : dimanche 24 juillet 2011 19:15
À : Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; xvr.brandao at gmail.com
Objet : Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latest imprecise reporting of facts (rongretlarson at comcast.net)

 

Xavier and cc stove list:
 
    I own a 7 kW (name plate) PV system and have worked peripherally on what you call SHS systems in Sudan, Ethiopia and Zimbabwe.  I understand very well how easy it is for something to go wrong - generally not with the panels.  But with the right sort of company giving service,  I believe they can work.  But I do applaud your suggested use of PV lanterns - which have become amazingly cheap.  Some are capable of cell phone recharge and radio service as well.

   So I am not surprised that you could assemble a set of quotes on SHS problems.  Unfortunately,  I couldn't make anything work at the google docs site.  I look forward to your sending me something directly and/or telling me what I may be doing incorrectly  (I have received from this site before.).

   PV is too far from our core stove topics to discuss this much more, but I would like to hear from you on whether you  see similar problems for the emerging rural stoves industry?   I just saw a nice stand-alone teapot which could generate enough electricity to recharge cell phones.  Earlier I have seen several wood stoves that could do the same.  Do you have recommendations for this list along these lines?  (To my knowledge,  no omerta here.)

Ron

  _____  

From: "Xavier Brandao" <xvr.brandao at gmail.com>
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:43:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latest        imprecise reporting of facts (rongretlarson at comcast.net)

Dear Ron,

Yes, I am very happy to share this document to anyone, thanks for your
interest. There were a few references to internal documents of the
foundation, I removed them, the rest is not confidential and can be shared
with everyone.
I send it to you by email, and also post it on Google documents here :
C
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nRXa32OgE0uPuyakSPlpPA0xqmU0hnH59Q7WAIof918/edit?pli=1PIc/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

This a bit off-topic, but perhaps a few people on this list have worked with
solar in developing countries. The goal of this document was to show there
are many questions about the suitability of the Solar Home Systems, also
called SHS, to developing countries, especially to rural areas and to the
bottom of the pyramid. A SHS is a kit composed of a solar panel + battery +
regulator + plugs + bulbs.
Many hints showed projects with difficulties around the world. In my
opinion, SHS is not an appropriate technology. It is a costly technology,
with technical limitations, made in developed countries and to be shipped to
developing countries, then to remote regions. A technology which satisfies
only certain needs : some light, radio and a small TV. No productive use of
the electricity. SHS need maintenance, trained users and qualified
technicians. I believe in electrification and solar for the third world, but
rather with solar lanterns, or carefully localized solar power plants.

All the indicators for the foundation projects were red, yet no one would
react or question the technology. Amazing. No one at the board would hear
that something was wrong. I collected info during months, while carefully
trying to start a discussion. The team of business developers tried also,
but no critics were allowed. This was NOT open to discussion. I had a few
words with the board, questioning the unattainable objectives. I sent a long
email to everyone in the foundation, trying to break the omerta and start a
public debate. I was fired without warning sometime after :) Up till now,
the foundation goes on with SHS. It is not going better for them, actually
it is going much worse.

I am sure the same story happens everyday, and will happen again.

Xavier



<<< Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:10:10 +0000 (UTC)
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
        <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's        latest
        imprecise reporting of facts. (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Message-ID:
        
<1592677650.193756.1311293410736.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.co
mcast.net>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


Xavier, list etal 

1. Thanks for the added insight - with which I mostly agree. The "mostly"
refers to the word "hidden". BFW is very open about wanting to kill all
forms of biofuel. Maybe "most" is more accurate - but I haven't seen a
bio-gas or bio-liquid they liked. They may have approved of indigenous
groups collecting fuel wood for cooking and heating. 

2. As you say - almost (?) every organization has a desire for self
preservation. BFW has no reason to be an exception. The problem as BFW
relates to Biochar is that they apparently see Biochar only as another
biofuel.. Biochar proponents, like most on the Biochar lists generally place
energy (or biofuels) last (if at all) among the three obvious potential
dollar flows.. The stoves list is more divided - but rarely open
hostility/denial towards sequestration or soil benefits, which BFW either
ignores or denies.. Jobs, rural economic development, reduced irrigation and
fertilizer needs, nutrient retention etc - all have to be put down by BFW-
even though they have little place in the world of biofuels. 

3. Our Biochar job is to show that Biochar is inherently different from
biofuels (because so many benefits can be retained at the site of converting
biomass to Biochar) This assumes that the people willing to pay for
sequestration agree that conversion should be done where the biomass is
grown and harvested. We in the developed world need the developing world -
and there are not many (any?) economic arenas where we can say that. 

Ron 

3. I'd like to see your 15 page list of quotes, if you care to. I promise
confidentiality. 

Ron >>>



_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110724/8df4dd5d/attachment.html>


More information about the Stoves mailing list