[Stoves] Fwd: Stove Matrix version 2
rongretlarson at comcast.net
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Mon Apr 8 12:23:10 CDT 2013
Paul, list etal. adding Priya and AD Karve as ccs.
My experience in this "attribute-list-stove-type" activity has mostly been through dialog with Dr. Priya Karve. Last month, she was on a GACC panel (which I missed) entitled: "Selecting the Most Appropriate Technologies for Your Consumers". As CEO of Samuchit, she has been selling several types of stoves and certainly can take both a researcher and a user perspective. See www.samuchit.com (the commercial side of ARTI, now including also her father A. D. ). Priya has given this topic a lot of thought. (I have given some - not a lot - being on the research end of the spectrum - and seeing many ways to improve stoves.)
Last year, we each tried placing 100 points in a column similar to that started by Lanny. We found ourselves quite divergent. At issue will be how one weights the various categories or items. I have concluded that self weighting is likely the most appropriate way to analyze this topic -- if someone puts their 100 points (the number needn't be specified) on one item, that is telling you a lot (but I would want hundreds if not thousands of inputs). If an important topic is not on your list, it is not apt to come up spontaneously very much. That is why I liked Jock Gill's contribution this AM. There should be a different list for groups like GACC.
This to ask if anyone who attended GACC can report on the conclusions of that particular panel. Especially I hope that Priya and AD can add some thoughts.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: "Robert Fairchild" <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Kevin" <kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca>, "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, April 8, 2013 10:01:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Matrix version 2
To all,
I remember the Matrix to have columns at the right side to show LPG/alcohol/solar, etc.
I am looking for it, but that was 4 years ago.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com On 4/8/2013 6:01 AM, Robert Fairchild wrote:
All,
Here it is as an attachment.
Bob
--- On Mon, 4/8/13, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
<blockquote>
From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] Understanding FUEL EFFICIENCY vs Energy efficiency
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: "Kevin" <kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca> , biochar at yahoogroups.com , "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1 at verizon.net> , "Bob Fairchild" <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, April 8, 2013, 2:25 AM
Dear Kevin, Crispin and all,
We are in agreement.
"Stove Testing" is an expression that has different meaning to different people. WBT is one of the tests of stoves. Just like we want to have the Safety analysis reported.
Kevin's list of questions should be part of a Table of Stove Characteristics that includes price, etc etc etc. I have not seen such a table since I posted a Cookstove Matrix in March 2006. Here is the description and the link, but I cannot see the actual matrix. Erin or Tom, can you find it?
<blockquote>
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/stove-matrix
Anyway, the point is that we need these kinds of consolidations of the many factors.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com On 4/8/2013 12:40 AM, Kevin wrote:
<blockquote>
Dear Paul
I would like to suggest a different way of looking at things.... look at a stove through the eyes of the customer.
(The "Customer" is the person or Organization that pays the Manufacturer for the Stove.)
The fundamental question should be: "What does the Customer want?"
Does the Customer want the stove to produce biochar?
Does the Customer want the stove to have the least fuel input to accomplish a stated task?
Does the Customer want to minimize products of combustion vented into the living space?
Does the Customer want the stove to provide a space heating benefit for the stove user?
Does the Customer want a stove that requires extended burn times between refuelling, and a minimum of attendance?
Does the Customer want a single firing rate throughout the burn, OR, a "Two Level Firing Rate capability, OR a large range of firing capabilities?
etc....
"Efficiency" is basically a measure of "Resource Input to accomplish a desired task"
It is not the purpose of "testing" to promote a particular technology or philosophy, but rather, to measure the effectiveness of accomplishing a given task of importance to the Customer..
"The Customer is the King." Proper Testing Protocols should allow a Customer to test a range of stoves, under a variety of circumstances, so that he will be able to select the stove that best meets his requirements.
Best wishes,
Kevin
<blockquote>
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Anderson
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; Hugh McLaughlin ; Bob Fairchild ; biochar at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 1:50 AM
Subject: [biochar] Understanding FUEL EFFICIENCY vs Energy efficiency
Dear Stovers and Biochar makers,
We are NOT sufficiently emphasizing that TLUDs/char-maker stoves can use
fuel other than stick wood. When burning briquettes and pellets and
cobs and shells (which most other stoves cannot burn very well), we are
NOT burning tree-sourced fuel.
Crispin correctly says that a kg of wood in and pyrolyzed is no longer
wood, and therefore is FUEL used, and that relates to FUEL Efficiency.
TLUDs can consume more wood because they are converting some of that
wood into charcoal. That is different from ENERGY efficiency, which
can allow calculations for the energy in the charcoal that is not used.
Especially in char-making stoves, energy efficiency is better than the
fuel efficiency IF USING WOOD. But if the fuel is not wood, then the
WOOD-FUEL efficiency is 100% (none was burned in the cooking of the
meal), and the ENERGY efficiency might be very good, while the FUEL
efficiency (burning ag residues, dung, etc) might be low in comparison
with other stoves, but no trees were cut or burned.
About the above, there will need to be some education given to the stove
community (including GACC and manufacturers and governments). WHAT fuel
is burned does make a difference if FUEL efficiency is an important
criteria when evaluating stoves.
Just because wood is the traditional fuel used in stove testing does not
mean that stoves that can also burn OTHER biomass should be judged on
the WOOD-FUEL efficiency calculations. For places like Haiti, Rwanda,
and many large zones of numerous large countries, to be able to cook
WITHOUT FOREST DEGRADATION should be a major reason for choosing TLUD
stoves.
Having written about this here does not mean that the message has
reached the decision makers and those who report test results on
cookstoves. And the makers of "stick-wood-burning stoves" are unlikely
to want to tell this message to others.
Because the GACC is about stoves AND FUELS, I hope that proper
recognition can be given in the discussions and decisions about the
stoves that can have 100% avoidance of cutting wood, if that is important.
Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
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