[Stoves] corn cobs and char

Thu Aug 15 16:23:59 CDT 2013

Hi all,
It has been a busy few days, so forgive me if someone has already made
these observations. We have used corn cobs with great success in the TLUDstyle
Estufa Finca stoves. I love showing people our little tiny corn cob
charcoal. We have also successfully made a lot of biochar from dried corn
stover in our version of the 55-gal drum TLUd style J-Ros. MIT has also
promoted both of these approaches in it's Field-to-fuel program in Haiti
and Nicaragua.

But there is a problem with thinking of corn cobs as a stove fuel: most
cobs are used as animal feed (pigs/chickens) and needed for it. Applying a
hierarchy or best use: the pigs win! However pelleted or briquetted corn
stover mixed with paper waste seems like it has a lot of potential.

Art

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:00 PM,
<stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:

> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
>         stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: corn cobs and char? (Ronal W. Larson)
>    2. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Andrew C. Parker)
>    3. Re: corn cobs and char? (revjcsd at juno.com)
>    4. Re: corn cobs and char? (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>    5. Re: corn cobs and char? (revjcsd at juno.com)
>    6. Re: corn cobs and char? (Ronal W. Larson)
>    7. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Anand Karve)
>    8. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Andrew C. Parker)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Message-ID: <0C9BBA9A-CCC2-4A20-9443-DA38B198ECA9 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> List, Tom etal:
>
>     Thanks for all the inputs.  Any others on corn cobs would still be
> potentially helpful.
>
>    My interest is only in the pyrolysis of such (for biochar production in
> a simple stove reasons, of course), and (as noted by many below) their low
> energy density makes pyrolysis difficult in TLUD.  Re corncobs themselves
> in the US, this cite I found helpful:
>
> http://renewables.morris.umn.edu/biomass/documents/Zych-TheViabilityOfCornCobsAsABioenergyFeedstock.pdf
>
>    This site
>         http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/alwayssomethingnew/Waste11.pdf
> says that globally there are 35 Gt cobs per year - which would make about
> as much available as char as total annual fossil emissions. - of 7-8 Gt C
> (very few of them now being used for anything).   But this sounds way too
> high, but 35 million tons sounds too low.  I have read 15% of a corn plant
> is in the cob, and annual production is approaching 1 Gt C.  Anyone an
> expert on corn?  In any case, corn os the world's largest grain crop - in
> both hectares and tons now, I believe - so their should be some cooking
> application for cobs somewhere
>
>   This site has a good 2012 paper on corn by Zhang
> thescipub.com/pdf/10.3844/ajbbsp.2012.44.53
>
>
>    The reason for asking about cobs is not only that they are pretty
> widely available,  but they are not a bad size and shape (especially
> compared to rice husks, which get a lot of attention in the stove world)
>
>      I am looking for reasons to drop the corn cob thread, but not yet
> found it.
>
>
>    Might as well design for the EPA testing protocol  (5 kg water,  45
> minute simmer??,  etc).  Can anyone supply that  (in published form
> preferably) in terms of anticipated energy need to the pot.?  After which
>  we can figure 30-40% (or different Tiers) stove efficiency.    Then we can
> go to container sizes, number of fuel switches per test, etc.
>
>   The first site above says about 5 GJ/m3 for corncobs (and 12 for wood
> pellets), so  (forgetting reloading)  the fuel volume needs to be about 2.4
> times larger than one with pellets that is also a char-producer. But down
> draft also allows reloading, not possible with TLUDs.  And (maybe) we can
> avoid a larger fuel container and achieve lower first cost with BLDD.
>
>
>   Anyone been thinking along these (corn or BLDD) lines?
>
>    I have in mind a downdraft design that I think can overcome the space
> and several other problems with TLUDs.   Nothing much on paper, but I'd be
> glad to discuss the BLDD topic with anyone - in an open source context.
> This is NOT dependent on corn cobs, but came out of thinking about cobs.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:34 AM, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that we have seen cobs burned with wood fuels in stoves
> for
> > several years, especially in Latin America.
> >
> > A challenge with crop residues is that they have enough air in the
> stalks,
> > cobs and stems to barely support combustion so they tend to smolder
> rather
> > than burn. A little wood provides enough of a pilot flame to keep the
> > combustible gases ignited.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130814/d6f696fb/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:31:04 -0600
> From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador
> Message-ID: <op.w1tpx2u2uoov7l at dad>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
>         delsp=yes
>
> Another step in the government's marketing campaign (I used to publish a
> small newspaper, so the process intrigues me).  For those of you who are
> considering a major product launch, take notice. (Keep in mind, El
> Universo is a major opposition newspaper, though recently editorially
> hobbled but not totally controlled.  I have not been following this story
> in the government owned media.)
>
> <
> http://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2013/08/14/nota/1288706/sube-demanda-cocinas-induccion-calentadores
> >
>
>
> Important points to consider, when converting to electric cooking
> appliances in Ecuador and many other countries, is that electrical service
> is often a hit-and-miss affair, and service is often acquired(stolen)
> using appliance cord.  I hope to see that addressed in upcoming articles,
> probably coinciding with the next big service interruption or tragic
> electrical fire (which will compensate for the reduction in the number of
> tragic tank explosions).
>
> I am not opposed to conversion to electric (it is still preferable to a
> wholesale switch to biomass*), I just don't have confidence that the
> government can meet the increased demand for electricity and provide it
> reliably.
>
> *(My great fear is the government turning to biomass fueled power plants.
> I see biomass best used as a local solution, where appropriate, i.e. a
> sustainable supply without increasing ecological damage.  When it is
> proposed as a national, regional or global solution, mayhem ensues.  What
> little I have seen on state television hints that the current preferred
> solution will be patriotic reductions in energy use, which brings us back
> to biomass stoves.)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:03:12 GMT
> From: "revjcsd at juno.com" <revjcsd at juno.com>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Message-ID: <20130815.050312.10329.2 at webmail02.dca.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Ron,
>
>
> On page 24 of the following link:
>
>
> http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75
> -18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf
>
>
> corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.
>
>
> Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is
> correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received
> any response.
>
> Fr Juanito
>
>
>
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:44:51 +0000
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Message-ID:
>
> <511447701-1376516692-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-194335528- at b27.c10.bise6.blackberry
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Dear Juanito
>
> Do they define what they mean by 'thermal efficiency'? That may change the
> impression given.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> From BB9900
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "revjcsd at juno.com" <revjcsd at juno.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:03:12
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
>
> Ron,
>
>
> On page 24 of the following link:
>
>
> http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75
> -18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf
>
>
> corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.
>
>
> Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is
> correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received
> any response.
>
> Fr Juanito
>
>
>
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:52:30 GMT
> From: "revjcsd at juno.com" <revjcsd at juno.com>
> To: crispinpigott at gmail.com,     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Message-ID: <20130815.055230.21137.0 at webmail04.dca.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Crispin,
>
> No. I suspect something is lost in the translation from Thai to English.
>
> I asked to have the claim confirmed but so far, I have not received a
> response.
>
> Juanito
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:44:51 +0000
>
> Dear Juanito
>
> Do they define what they mean by 'thermal efficiency'? That may change the
> impression given.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:12:12 -0600
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> Message-ID: <C25A84C8-D68B-43F3-A8B0-304EDF3A965C at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Fr.  Juanito and list
>
>    1,  Re p 24.  It was favorable to see cobs come out ahead of chips and
> char, but it seemed (I could not make the video work), that was almost
> certainly combustion and neither gasification nor pyrolysis.  I need data
> for pyrolysis, not gasification - which seemed to be the main topic of the
> PPt, but there was a lot on the Belonio stove.  Dr. Olivier has advanced
> that design a lot.
>
>   2.  Slide 15 was badly in error, showing a TLUD and putting the word
> "combustion" where the word "pyrolysis" should appear.
>
>   3.  One doesn't need to be a Thai reader to enjoy this PPt.  - maybe 2%
> in Thai.
>
> Thanks a lot for the added info.
>
> Ron
>
>   .
>
> On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:03 PM, revjcsd at juno.com wrote:
>
> > Ron,
> >
> >
> > On page 24 of the following link:
> >
> >
> http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75
> > -18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf
> >
> >
> > corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.
> >
> >
> > Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is
> correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received
> any response.
> >
> > Fr Juanito
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?
> > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 09:44:47 +0530
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CACPy7Sfnd4sxAbO75gesFqMcCS33Fch7zbAP6axD9YxXtWVMdA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Andrew,
> there is no need for anything to get ugly if urban households switched to
> biomass.  If one used stoves having electrically driven fans, biomass can
> be burned as cleanly as kerosene or LPG. If more electricity is going to be
> available in Ecuador, it can be used for briquetting agricultural waste.
> This has now grown into a thriving industry in India. The briquette makers
> buy agricultural waste from farmers and sell the briquettes to
> industries as boiler fuel. If an industry uses biomass briquettes instead
> of fuel oil as boiler fuel, it saves almost 60% of the fuel cost. A company
> of which I am the Chairman of the board, sells large stoves of this type to
> restaurants, which have switched over from LPG to using biomass briquettes.
> The cities themselves produce a large amount of combustible waste like
> cardboard, waste paper and leaf litter. Richard Stanley's method of
> briquetting can be used for turning urban waste into fuel briquettes for
> use in urban household stoves.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Andrew C. Parker <acparker at xmission.com
> >wrote:
>
> > There is probably enough ag waste to fuel rural kitchens, but if urban
> > households switch to biomass, it will get really ugly, which would be a
> > shame for such a beautiful country.
>
>
>
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_**
> > lists.bioenergylists.org<
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.**org/ <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130815/2774267d/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:55:10 -0600
> From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador
> Message-ID: <op.w1uf18s6uoov7l at dad>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
>         delsp=yes
>
> Dr. Karve,
>
> Thank you for your input.  My concern is that demand for biomass would
> outstrip the supply of agricultural waste and suppliers would begin
> behaving like the charcoal burners of pre-subsidy days.  I suppose, before
> wringing my hands, I could compare the current demand of LPG against the
> availability and estimated energy of ag waste, but I don't have those
> figures available.  Perhaps a grad student could be convinced to do it for
> a thesis or capstone project?
>
>  From the articles, it is evident that subsidies will continue, but for
> electricity, not for LPG.  That should be far less costly than current LPG
> subsidies.  Also, the comments by users of the the state provided
> induction hotplates indicates that there will be a need for a non-electric
> backup stove in most kitchens.
>
> Ironically, if the unregulated price of LPG soars, households that do not
> qualify for the electric subsidy, may be more inclined to use a biomass
> stove (assuming a lower price for biomass) than those who receive the
> subsidy.
>
>
> Andrew Parker
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:47 -0600, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > there is no need for anything to get ugly if urban households switched
> > to biomass.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 36, Issue 23
> **************************************
>

-- 
Art Donnelly
President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130815/3a6a7b06/attachment.html>