[Stoves] Example of missed opportunities was Re: is this new?

[Dean Still]

Hi Paul and Art,

Let's make a date at ETHOS to have a week long TLUD emissions testing
seminar. TLUD designers can use the two hoods and the Test Kitchen to look
at best solutions. We can write up the results. I'll supply the coffee.

Best,

Dean

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 5:51 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

>  Crispin and all,
>
> Good comments by Alex and Marc and Crispin are below about air flows in
> TLUDs.
>
> All should note that Paal Wendelbo's Peko Pe TLUD has had some side-holes
> in the fuel chamber wall for 2 decades.  Not as much "early secondary air"
> as Crispin's Vesto.   And Paul Wever has them in his "stove pipe stove".
>
> My experiments with them were not conclusive about any advantage, so I
> have opted to not use them, partly to have less work in fabrication (no
> extra holes to make) and partly because the entering air enters as PRIMARY
> AIR when the fuel bed is above the level of each hole, which translates
> into less control.   I will probably re-visit this topic when time and
> funds permit.
>
> MAIN POINT:  This is a great example of missed opportunities because there
> has never been seriously funded research on the multitude of controllable
> variables in TLUD stoves!!!   We can see the possible variations.  But we
> cannot prove them one way or the other simply by funding them out of the
> pocketbooks of Paal, Paul, Crispin and others.  YEARS AGO we should have
> resolved the issues of the Vesto stove being operated as a TLUD, or as a
> different type of stove.   The Peko Pe features should be better
> understood.   As should the issues of Nurhuda's stove, and Belonio's, and
> Anderson's and others.  Even people who have resisted TLUD technology for
> years are becoming involved and still there is nearly zero coordination.
> And any financial support seems to be by-passing the people with experience
> with micro-gasifiers, and instead is seeking isolated academic modelling
> that (I suspect) will take years to have academic results.  So be it, but
> let's also give some funds to the practitioners.
>
> *With all due respect* for the need for proper "technology neutral"
> distribution of funding, I am getting very tired of "technology neutral"
> that gives equal (or more) weight to giving money (big money) to
> "business-ready" operations that can start cranking out stoves to be
> counted toward the 100 million by 2020.  Instead, the leading technology
> for lowest emissions from solid-fuel cookstoves is TLUD (and other
> micro-gasification), and it is not yet getting BASIC support that is
> needed.
>
> This is how it looks from my vantage point.  I hope that the above is a
> "reasoned statement", not a "rant."  And I am forever an optimist and have
> hopes that the  situation will improve.
>
> I look forward to seeing many of you at ETHOS in Seattle and/or at the
> GACC Forum in Cambodia.
>
> Paul
>
> *************
> Alex English wrote:
>
> Crispin,
> Its been a while since I saw the Vesto. It looks from the pictures like
> there are secondary air holes all the way up the central tube. Is that
> current?
> Seems like the top rows would just be adding tramp air (unemployed air).
>
> Alex
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 1/20/2013 9:06 PM, Marc Pare wrote:
>
> That cutaway is beautiful! Great example of "let the product speak for
> itself"
>
>  Since seeing counterflow in action, I understand exactly what you're
> describing with the air flows.
>
>  I didn't understand your emphasis on keeping the flame near the bed with
> a "descending burner" until this paragraph:
>
>  The secondary air is send across the surface to keep a deck of flame
> going at the height of the holes. This obviates the need for adding a
> circular disk at the top to ’keep the flame going’. Adding a ‘concentrator’
> as Paul calls it takes more material and moves the fire too far away from
> the heat of the pyrolysis bed leading to unwanted flame-outs from time to
> time.
>
>
> I've seen these instabilities quite often in small-scale pyrolyzers. Great
> to see a practical measure to prevent their tendency to "smoke bomb".
>
>  What's on the "to-do" list for this class of design, Crispin? Are you
> looking to push it into other applications? Apply the principles to improve
> existing design? (like you mentioned with advancing the Anglo SupraNova)
>
>  Marc Paré
> B.S. Mechanical Engineering
> Georgia Institute of Technology | Université de Technologie de Compiègne
>
> my cv, etc. | http://notwandering.com
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Dear Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a response to questions about air and Marc’s tube.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is an old photo of secondary air entering the combustion chamber of
>> a Vesto pushing the flame to the centre. This accomplishes the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> Keeps the fire away from the wall, reducing the temperature it has to
>> survive (a lot)
>>
>> Keeps the flame going
>>
>> Not allowing it to spread to one side away from the smoke on the other
>> side that might otherwise ‘get away’.
>>
>> Provides turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and smoke
>>
>> Allows for preheating to a significant degree (250-500 C)
>>
>    See Crispin's message at the Stoves Listserv archives.
>
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