[Stoves] on ocean acidification

Fri Jul 5 01:52:34 CDT 2013

On ocean acidification from National Geographic:
http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/critical-issues-ocean-acidification/
On ocean acidification from Scientific American:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ocean-acidification-hurts-squid-too&page=2
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ocean-acidification-weakens-mussels-grip
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=us-effort-on-ocean-acidification-needs-focus-on-human-impacts

I guess I could go on and on.

Paul Olivier

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>wrote:

>  Mark,
>
> on a logarithmic scale how many times can you make a 30% change?
>
> i.e., is there only hydrogen ion activity over <0.4points of the pH scale
> or are you saying something different?
>
> regards,
> Ronald von pHneutralOberbayern
>
>
>
> On 05.07.2013 07:41, Paul Olivier wrote:
>
>  Mark,
>
>  Thanks so much for your contribution here.
>  We are in full agreement on this point.
>
>  Paul Olivier
>
>
>  On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy
> Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com> wrote:
>
>>  I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is necessary
>> that an error be corrected before this thread is put to sleep.
>>
>> It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of the oceans has
>> increased.
>>
>> It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans has decreased by
>> about 0.1.  Because pH is a logarithmic scale, this actually means a 30%
>> increase in the hydrogen ion activity.  In other words, the acidity has
>> increased by 30%.  This is basic chemistry, not "nonsense".  (The fact that
>> carbon dioxide, when dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid, is also basic
>> chemistry.)
>>
>> But yes the oceans are alkaline.  The shift in pH is from about 8.2 to
>> about 8.1.  (Less alkaline = more acidic, wherever you are on the pH
>> scale.)  People who have dedicated their lives to studying oceanic
>> ecosystems are saying that even this ostensibly small drop in pH is
>> impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying microorganisms and other
>> highly-calcium-dependent species - and therefore also on the whole
>> ecosystems which depend on them for food or shelter.  (And remember, humans
>> are at the top of the food chain in many of those ecosystems.)  That is why
>> this is a serious matter.
>>
>> mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>
>>   Paul O
>>
>>
>>
>> The point Andrew was making when asking that the conversation about
>> climate be moved to another site was to prevent that sort of nonsense
>> cluttering up this site which is a domestic stoves discussion list.
>>
>>
>>
>> When someone repeats a claims that the ‘oceans have increased in acidity
>> by one third’ and implying it is because of man-made CO2 emissions from
>> fossil fuels it deserves to be labelled exactly that o nonsense. The oceans
>> are alkaline, not acidic and cannot ‘increase in acidity by one third’ –
>> whatever that means.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wrote to you privately because the discussion does not belong here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please accept the moderator’s view.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Paul Olivier
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM
>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> *Subject:* [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>>
>>
>>
>> In a previous email I had cited an article by Mark Bittman concerning
>> ocean acidification. Crispin responded to me off-list and said:
>>
>>
>>   *That was the most outrageous set of nonsense on oceans and CO2 I have
>> seem. What rubbish. *
>>
>> * The oceans are not acidic.*
>>
>> *CO2 absorbed by water turns about 1% into carbonic acid, a fragile
>> composition with a short lifespan.*
>>
>> *If the oceans were to absorb many many gigatons of CO2 it would become
>> slightly less alkaline.*
>>
>> *It seems that Bittman does not even know the most basic facts about
>> oceans and just attributes everything he sees to ‘AGW’. His writings are
>> not helping the reputation of science. His view are not informing the
>> discussion. His conclusions are worthy of ridicule.*
>>
>> *Fish and mollusk populations rise and fall with the food supply. When
>> the PDO changed in 1976 there were also large population shifts. It has
>> shifted again. The shift is 100% natural and has nothing to do with human
>> fuel use.*
>>
>>  I replied to his email as follows:
>>
>> *Please do not label everything that you disagree with as rubbish,
>> nonsense, or as worthy of ridicule. It is hard to conduct a debate when you
>> use such language.
>>
>> I would like to draw your attention to the following:
>> http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/
>>
>> http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification*
>>
>> *http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification
>> http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F*
>>
>> *I would like to ask the members of this stove list: why do we go about
>> designing stoves? Are we only concerned about poor people in developing
>> countries who sit around dirty campfires? Or do we want to design stoves
>> that at the same time address important issues such as climate change,
>> global warming and ocean acidification?
>> *
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ---
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
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-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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