[Stoves] on ocean acidification

Fri Jul 5 11:20:39 CDT 2013

A 1-point reduction in pH means hydrogen ion activity (i.e. acidity) is 
multiplied by 10.

A 14-point reduction would mean hydrogen ion activity is multiplied by 
100000000000000.

A 0.1 point reduction in pH means hydrogen ion activity is multiplied by 
10^(0.1)  [here, ^ means "to the power of"], which is about 1.25 - i.e. 
25% more active hydrogen ions.

The figures I have seen for the average oceanic pH reduction are 
somewhere in the 0.11 to 0.12 range, which gives you about 30% more 
active hydrogen ions.

A 0.4 point reduction in pH (not sure why you chose that figure) would 
multiply the number of active hydrogen ions by about 2.51 [10^(0.4)] - 
i.e. a 151% increase.

This is the case wherever you are on the pH scale.

m

On 2013:07:05 00:37, Ronald Hongsermeier wrote:
> Mark,
>
> on a logarithmic scale how many times can you make a 30% change?
>
> i.e., is there only hydrogen ion activity over <0.4points of the pH 
> scale or are you saying something different?
>
> regards,
> Ronald von pHneutralOberbayern
>
>
> On 05.07.2013 07:41, Paul Olivier wrote:
>> Mark,
>>
>> Thanks so much for your contribution here.
>> We are in full agreement on this point.
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy 
>> Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com 
>> <mailto:mark at lowenergydesign.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is
>>     necessary that an error be corrected before this thread is put to
>>     sleep.
>>
>>     It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of the
>>     oceans has increased.
>>
>>     It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans has
>>     decreased by about 0.1.  Because pH is a logarithmic scale, this
>>     actually means a 30% increase in the hydrogen ion activity.  In
>>     other words, the acidity has increased by 30%.  This is basic
>>     chemistry, not "nonsense".  (The fact that carbon dioxide, when
>>     dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid, is also basic chemistry.)
>>
>>     But yes the oceans are alkaline.  The shift in pH is from about
>>     8.2 to about 8.1.  (Less alkaline = more acidic, wherever you are
>>     on the pH scale.)  People who have dedicated their lives to
>>     studying oceanic ecosystems are saying that even this ostensibly
>>     small drop in pH is impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying
>>     microorganisms and other highly-calcium-dependent species - and
>>     therefore also on the whole ecosystems which depend on them for
>>     food or shelter.  (And remember, humans are at the top of the
>>     food chain in many of those ecosystems.)  That is why this is a
>>     serious matter.
>>
>>     mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>>
>>>     Paul O
>>>
>>>     The point Andrew was making when asking that the conversation
>>>     about climate be moved to another site was to prevent that sort
>>>     of nonsense cluttering up this site which is a domestic stoves
>>>     discussion list.
>>>
>>>     When someone repeats a claims that the 'oceans have increased in
>>>     acidity by one third' and implying it is because of man-made CO2
>>>     emissions from fossil fuels it deserves to be labelled exactly
>>>     that o nonsense. The oceans are alkaline, not acidic and cannot
>>>     'increase in acidity by one third' -- whatever that means.
>>>
>>>     I wrote to you privately because the discussion does not belong
>>>     here.
>>>
>>>     Please accept the moderator's view.
>>>
>>>     Thanks
>>>
>>>     Crispin
>>>
>>>     *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>>>     *On Behalf Of *Paul Olivier
>>>     *Sent:* Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM
>>>     *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>     *Subject:* [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>>>
>>>     In a previous email I had cited an article by Mark Bittman
>>>     concerning ocean acidification. Crispin responded to me off-list
>>>     and said:
>>>
>>>
>>>     /That was the most outrageous set of nonsense on oceans and CO2
>>>     I have seem. What rubbish. /
>>>
>>>     / The oceans are not acidic./
>>>
>>>     /CO2 absorbed by water turns about 1% into carbonic acid, a
>>>     fragile composition with a short lifespan./
>>>
>>>     /If the oceans were to absorb many many gigatons of CO2 it would
>>>     become slightly less alkaline./
>>>
>>>     /It seems that Bittman does not even know the most basic facts
>>>     about oceans and just attributes everything he sees to 'AGW'.
>>>     His writings are not helping the reputation of science. His view
>>>     are not informing the discussion. His conclusions are worthy of
>>>     ridicule./
>>>
>>>     /Fish and mollusk populations rise and fall with the food
>>>     supply. When the PDO changed in 1976 there were also large
>>>     population shifts. It has shifted again. The shift is 100%
>>>     natural and has nothing to do with human fuel use./
>>>
>>>     I replied to his email as follows:
>>>
>>>     /Please do not label everything that you disagree with as
>>>     rubbish, nonsense, or as worthy of ridicule. It is hard to
>>>     conduct a debate when you use such language.
>>>
>>>     I would like to draw your attention to the following:
>>>     http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/
>>>     http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf
>>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification/
>>>
>>>     /http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification
>>>     http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F/
>>>
>>>     /I would like to ask the members of this stove list: why do we
>>>     go about designing stoves? Are we only concerned about poor
>>>     people in developing countries who sit around dirty campfires?
>>>     Or do we want to design stoves that at the same time address
>>>     important issues such as climate change, global warming and
>>>     ocean acidification?
>>>     /
>>>     Thanks.
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>>>     ---
>>>     Paul A. Olivier PhD
>>>     26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>>>     Dalat
>>>     Vietnam
>>>
>>>     Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>>>     Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>>>     Skype address: Xpolivier
>>>     http://www.esrla.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
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