[Stoves] on ocean acidification

Fri Jul 5 01:37:12 CDT 2013

Mark,

on a logarithmic scale how many times can you make a 30% change?

i.e., is there only hydrogen ion activity over <0.4points of the pH 
scale or are you saying something different?

regards,
Ronald von pHneutralOberbayern

On 05.07.2013 07:41, Paul Olivier wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Thanks so much for your contribution here.
> We are in full agreement on this point.
>
> Paul Olivier
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy 
> Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com 
> <mailto:mark at lowenergydesign.com>> wrote:
>
>     I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is
>     necessary that an error be corrected before this thread is put to
>     sleep.
>
>     It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of the
>     oceans has increased.
>
>     It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans has
>     decreased by about 0.1.  Because pH is a logarithmic scale, this
>     actually means a 30% increase in the hydrogen ion activity.  In
>     other words, the acidity has increased by 30%.  This is basic
>     chemistry, not "nonsense".  (The fact that carbon dioxide, when
>     dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid, is also basic chemistry.)
>
>     But yes the oceans are alkaline.  The shift in pH is from about
>     8.2 to about 8.1.  (Less alkaline = more acidic, wherever you are
>     on the pH scale.)  People who have dedicated their lives to
>     studying oceanic ecosystems are saying that even this ostensibly
>     small drop in pH is impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying
>     microorganisms and other highly-calcium-dependent species - and
>     therefore also on the whole ecosystems which depend on them for
>     food or shelter.  (And remember, humans are at the top of the food
>     chain in many of those ecosystems.)  That is why this is a serious
>     matter.
>
>     mark
>
>
>
>
>     On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>
>>     Paul O
>>
>>     The point Andrew was making when asking that the conversation
>>     about climate be moved to another site was to prevent that sort
>>     of nonsense cluttering up this site which is a domestic stoves
>>     discussion list.
>>
>>     When someone repeats a claims that the ‘oceans have increased in
>>     acidity by one third’ and implying it is because of man-made CO2
>>     emissions from fossil fuels it deserves to be labelled exactly
>>     that o nonsense. The oceans are alkaline, not acidic and cannot
>>     ‘increase in acidity by one third’ – whatever that means.
>>
>>     I wrote to you privately because the discussion does not belong here.
>>
>>     Please accept the moderator’s view.
>>
>>     Thanks
>>
>>     Crispin
>>
>>     *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>>     *On Behalf Of *Paul Olivier
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM
>>     *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>     *Subject:* [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>>
>>     In a previous email I had cited an article by Mark Bittman
>>     concerning ocean acidification. Crispin responded to me off-list
>>     and said:
>>
>>
>>     /That was the most outrageous set of nonsense on oceans and CO2 I
>>     have seem. What rubbish. /
>>
>>     / The oceans are not acidic./
>>
>>     /CO2 absorbed by water turns about 1% into carbonic acid, a
>>     fragile composition with a short lifespan./
>>
>>     /If the oceans were to absorb many many gigatons of CO2 it would
>>     become slightly less alkaline./
>>
>>     /It seems that Bittman does not even know the most basic facts
>>     about oceans and just attributes everything he sees to ‘AGW’. His
>>     writings are not helping the reputation of science. His view are
>>     not informing the discussion. His conclusions are worthy of
>>     ridicule./
>>
>>     /Fish and mollusk populations rise and fall with the food supply.
>>     When the PDO changed in 1976 there were also large population
>>     shifts. It has shifted again. The shift is 100% natural and has
>>     nothing to do with human fuel use./
>>
>>     I replied to his email as follows:
>>
>>     /Please do not label everything that you disagree with as
>>     rubbish, nonsense, or as worthy of ridicule. It is hard to
>>     conduct a debate when you use such language.
>>
>>     I would like to draw your attention to the following:
>>     http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/
>>     http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification/
>>
>>     /http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification
>>     http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F/
>>
>>     /I would like to ask the members of this stove list: why do we go
>>     about designing stoves? Are we only concerned about poor people
>>     in developing countries who sit around dirty campfires? Or do we
>>     want to design stoves that at the same time address important
>>     issues such as climate change, global warming and ocean
>>     acidification?
>>     /
>>     Thanks.
>>
>>     Paul
>>
>>     ---
>>     Paul A. Olivier PhD
>>     26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>>     Dalat
>>     Vietnam
>>
>>     Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>>     Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>>     Skype address: Xpolivier
>>     http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
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>
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> -- 
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
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