[Stoves] on ocean acidification

Energies Naturals C.B. energiesnaturals at gmx.de
Fri Jul 5 12:00:04 CDT 2013


Hallo Ron,

does your GEK work yet?

happy summer

Rolf von Sommerinselimmittelmeer 



On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 08:37:12 +0200
Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> on a logarithmic scale how many times can you make a 30% change?
> 
> i.e., is there only hydrogen ion activity over <0.4points of the pH 
> scale or are you saying something different?
> 
> regards,
> Ronald von pHneutralOberbayern
> 
> 
> On 05.07.2013 07:41, Paul Olivier wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > Thanks so much for your contribution here.
> > We are in full agreement on this point.
> >
> > Paul Olivier
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy 
> > Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com 
> > <mailto:mark at lowenergydesign.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is
> >     necessary that an error be corrected before this thread is put to
> >     sleep.
> >
> >     It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of the
> >     oceans has increased.
> >
> >     It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans has
> >     decreased by about 0.1.  Because pH is a logarithmic scale, this
> >     actually means a 30% increase in the hydrogen ion activity.  In
> >     other words, the acidity has increased by 30%.  This is basic
> >     chemistry, not "nonsense".  (The fact that carbon dioxide, when
> >     dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid, is also basic chemistry.)
> >
> >     But yes the oceans are alkaline.  The shift in pH is from about
> >     8.2 to about 8.1.  (Less alkaline = more acidic, wherever you are
> >     on the pH scale.)  People who have dedicated their lives to
> >     studying oceanic ecosystems are saying that even this ostensibly
> >     small drop in pH is impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying
> >     microorganisms and other highly-calcium-dependent species - and
> >     therefore also on the whole ecosystems which depend on them for
> >     food or shelter.  (And remember, humans are at the top of the food
> >     chain in many of those ecosystems.)  That is why this is a serious
> >     matter.
> >
> >     mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> >>
> >>     Paul O
> >>
> >>     The point Andrew was making when asking that the conversation
> >>     about climate be moved to another site was to prevent that sort
> >>     of nonsense cluttering up this site which is a domestic stoves
> >>     discussion list.
> >>
> >>     When someone repeats a claims that the ‘oceans have increased in
> >>     acidity by one third’ and implying it is because of man-made CO2
> >>     emissions from fossil fuels it deserves to be labelled exactly
> >>     that o nonsense. The oceans are alkaline, not acidic and cannot
> >>     ‘increase in acidity by one third’ – whatever that means.
> >>
> >>     I wrote to you privately because the discussion does not belong here.
> >>
> >>     Please accept the moderator’s view.
> >>
> >>     Thanks
> >>
> >>     Crispin
> >>
> >>     *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> >>     *On Behalf Of *Paul Olivier
> >>     *Sent:* Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM
> >>     *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >>     *Subject:* [Stoves] on ocean acidification
> >>
> >>     In a previous email I had cited an article by Mark Bittman
> >>     concerning ocean acidification. Crispin responded to me off-list
> >>     and said:
> >>
> >>
> >>     /That was the most outrageous set of nonsense on oceans and CO2 I
> >>     have seem. What rubbish. /
> >>
> >>     / The oceans are not acidic./
> >>
> >>     /CO2 absorbed by water turns about 1% into carbonic acid, a
> >>     fragile composition with a short lifespan./
> >>
> >>     /If the oceans were to absorb many many gigatons of CO2 it would
> >>     become slightly less alkaline./
> >>
> >>     /It seems that Bittman does not even know the most basic facts
> >>     about oceans and just attributes everything he sees to ‘AGW’. His
> >>     writings are not helping the reputation of science. His view are
> >>     not informing the discussion. His conclusions are worthy of
> >>     ridicule./
> >>
> >>     /Fish and mollusk populations rise and fall with the food supply.
> >>     When the PDO changed in 1976 there were also large population
> >>     shifts. It has shifted again. The shift is 100% natural and has
> >>     nothing to do with human fuel use./
> >>
> >>     I replied to his email as follows:
> >>
> >>     /Please do not label everything that you disagree with as
> >>     rubbish, nonsense, or as worthy of ridicule. It is hard to
> >>     conduct a debate when you use such language.
> >>
> >>     I would like to draw your attention to the following:
> >>     http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/
> >>     http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf
> >>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification/
> >>
> >>     /http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification
> >>     http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F/
> >>
> >>     /I would like to ask the members of this stove list: why do we go
> >>     about designing stoves? Are we only concerned about poor people
> >>     in developing countries who sit around dirty campfires? Or do we
> >>     want to design stoves that at the same time address important
> >>     issues such as climate change, global warming and ocean
> >>     acidification?
> >>     /
> >>     Thanks.
> >>
> >>     Paul
> >>
> >>     ---
> >>     Paul A. Olivier PhD
> >>     26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> >>     Dalat
> >>     Vietnam
> >>
> >>     Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> >>     Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> >>     Skype address: Xpolivier
> >>     http://www.esrla.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
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