[Stoves] wheat husk pellets
Art Donnelly
art.donnelly at seachar.org
Tue Jun 11 19:42:50 CDT 2013
Hi all,
There is a Chinese pellet mill manufacturer who you should become familiar
with:
GEMCO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2HSj0FU8_E
http://www.gemco-machine.com/Pellet-Mill/
We do not have one of their mills yet, but are trying to raise the money.
We have been communicating with them and they seem to be very customer
service oriented.
best,
Art Donnelly
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:44 AM,
<stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:
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>
> 1. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
> 2. Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
> Ecol?gicos (rogerio at ecofogao.com.br)
> 3. Re: Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
> Ecol?gicos (Paul Anderson)
> 4. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
> 5. Re: wheat husk pellets (mtrevor)
> 6. Re: Insulation and stove life (Paal Wendelbo)
> 7. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
> 8. Re: wheat husk pellets (mtrevor)
> 9. Re: wheat husk pellets (Tom Miles)
> 10. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Anderson)
> 11. Re: Insulation and stove life (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> 12. Re: wheat husk pellets (Bjarne Laustsen)
> 13. Re: wheat husk pellets (Tom Miles)
> 14. Re: wheat husk pellets (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 15. Meat grinder fuels for TLUDs was Re: wheat husk pellets
> (Paul Anderson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:11:13 +0700
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> To: Crispin P-P <crispinpigott at gmail.com>, Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAOreFvZ1E4V8H1h6tnBuQW7UJhexByFta14m8fVJodXeB74H7Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> See comments below.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Paul O
> >
> > The reason is economics.
> >
>
> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas
> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of
> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
> cook a meal.
>
>
> >
> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
> > transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >
>
> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a thoroughly
> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not
> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the highest
> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
> power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace
> bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from
> these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>
>
> >
> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of
> > coal per delivered MJ.
> >
>
> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>
>
>
> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> > properly.
> >
>
> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>
>
> >
> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
> > equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same
> > energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
> husk
> > supply.
> >
>
> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will stimulate
> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>
>
> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
> > includes the whole value chain?
> >
>
>
> >
> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
> > options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would be
> > the most viable.
> >
>
> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>
>
> >
> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that
> > is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
> >
>
> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have an
> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
> on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
> meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
> proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to
> cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> > From BB9900
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 17:53:17 -0700
> From: <rogerio at ecofogao.com.br>
> To: <estufas at bioenergylists.org>, <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
> Ecol?gicos
> Message-ID: <004601ce663e$0fd7ced0$2f876c70$@ecofogao.com.br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es Ecol?gicos
>
> Por uma iniciativa da PROLENHA e do CEPAN, se realizar? nos dias 11 e 12
> de Julho em Recife, o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro de Fog?es Ecol?gicos.
>
> Os objetivos do semin?rio ser?o os de discutir a problem?tica ocasionada
> pelo uso de fog?es a lenha primitivos no Brasil, e analisar as poss?veis
> solu??es; bem como trocar experi?ncias sobre a promo??o de fog?es
> ecol?gicos entre as diversas organiza??es presentes; al?m de propor
> iniciativas e estrat?gias de desenvolvimento para um maior acesso das
> fam?lias as tecnologias de fog?es ecol?gicos.
>
> No Brasil aproximadamente nove milh?es de fam?lias brasileiras ainda
> utilizam biomassa para cozinhar, das quais 50% est?o no nordeste. A grande
> maioria utiliza diariamente fog?es de desenho primitivo, muito ineficientes
> e que emitem grande quantidade de fuma?a, o que leva a morte prematura de
> 21 mil pessoas todos os anos no Pa?s, devido a problemas de sa?de
> decorrentes da exposi??o ? fuma?a.
>
> Adicionalmente, estes primitivos fog?es consomem grande quantidade de
> energia de forma ineficiente, principalmente a lenha, ocasionando uma
> press?o insustent?vel dos recursos naturais em biomas como a Caatinga, o
> Cerrado, e a Mata Atl?ntica.
>
> Algumas organiza??es localizadas nestes biomas j? est?o se mobilizando
> para reduzir o impacto destes fog?es primitivos, adotando projetos para a
> dissemina??o de fog?es ecol?gicos, os quais s?o mais eficientes e de
> emiss?es mais limpas, como uma estrat?gia de conviv?ncia sustent?vel do
> agricultor com o bioma em que habita. O objetivo ? tornar o uso da lenha
> sustent?vel, al?m de evitar problemas de sa?de, melhorar a qualidade de
> vida destas fam?lias, e evitar a emiss?o de gases de efeito estufa.
>
> Para mais informa??es acesse www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe
>
> http://www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe/index.html
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:34:55 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: estufas at bioenergylists.org, rogerio at ecofogao.com.br
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre
> Fog?es Ecol?gicos
> Message-ID: <51B68CCF.2030807 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Rogerio,
>
> Infelizmente nao posso assitir nas datas marcadas. Favor incluir no
> programa umas informacoes sobre os fogoes gasificadore TLUD. Estou
> disposto a trabalhar com os brasileiros interessados nas gasificadoes
> para cosinas domesticas e tambem para instituicoes .
>
> Abracos,
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/10/2013 7:53 PM, rogerio at ecofogao.com.br wrote:
> >
> > *_Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es Ecol?gicos_*
> >
> > Por uma iniciativa da PROLENHA e do CEPAN, se realizar? nos dias 11 e 12
> de Julho em Recife, o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro de Fog?es Ecol?gicos.
> >
> > Os objetivos do semin?rio ser?o os de discutir a problem?tica ocasionada
> pelo uso de fog?es a lenha primitivos no Brasil, e analisar as poss?veis
> solu??es; bem como trocar experi?ncias sobre a promo??o de fog?es
> ecol?gicos entre as diversas organiza??es presentes; al?m de propor
> iniciativas e estrat?gias de desenvolvimento para um maior acesso das
> fam?lias as tecnologias de fog?es ecol?gicos.
> >
> > No Brasil aproximadamente nove milh?es de fam?lias brasileiras ainda
> utilizam biomassa para cozinhar, das quais 50% est?o no nordeste. A grande
> maioria utiliza diariamente fog?es de desenho primitivo, muito ineficientes
> e que emitem grande quantidade de fuma?a, o que leva a morte prematura de
> 21 mil pessoas todos os anos no Pa?s, devido a problemas de sa?de
> decorrentes da exposi??o ? fuma?a.
> >
> > Adicionalmente, estes primitivos fog?es consomem grande quantidade de
> energia de forma ineficiente, principalmente a lenha, ocasionando uma
> press?o insustent?vel dos recursos naturais em biomas como a Caatinga, o
> Cerrado, e a Mata Atl?ntica.
> >
> > Algumas organiza??es localizadas nestes biomas j? est?o se mobilizando
> para reduzir o impacto destes fog?es primitivos, adotando projetos para a
> dissemina??o de fog?es ecol?gicos, os quais s?o mais eficientes e de
> emiss?es mais limpas, como uma estrat?gia de conviv?ncia sustent?vel do
> agricultor com o bioma em que habita. O objetivo ? tornar o uso da lenha
> sustent?vel, al?m de evitar problemas de sa?de, melhorar a qualidade de
> vida destas fam?lias, e evitar a emiss?o de gases de efeito estufa.
> >
> > Para mais informa??es acesse www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe
> >
> > http://www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe/index.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:54:29 +0700
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAOreFvZYHbuc-Bx4OkLPMMiu2Z5cOcA4qzMD9f_rCiDg4e5iZw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> *What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.*
>
> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others large
> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that
> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
> height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that
> uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
> mobile and much cheaper.
>
> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>
> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
> used.
> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
> load.
> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls of
> a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
> level of convenience and ease of use.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> >wrote:
>
> > See comments below.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> > crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Paul O
> >>
> >> The reason is economics.
> >>
> >
> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
> > good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
> > over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> > upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG
> gas
> > to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed
> of
> > making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
> > cook a meal.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
> >> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >>
> >
> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
> > pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
> > husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
> > thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
> > husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
> > stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
> > argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not
> to
> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that
> > would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
> > left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price
> of
> >> coal per delivered MJ.
> >>
> >
> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> > delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> > underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> >> properly.
> >>
> >
> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
> >> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the
> same
> >> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
> husk
> >> supply.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
> > will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
> stimulate
> > the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
> >
> >
> >> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
> >> includes the whole value chain?
> >>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
> >> options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would
> >> be the most viable.
> >>
> >
> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
> >
> >
> >>
> >> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that
> >> is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
> >>
> >
> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
> > an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus
> > more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to
> > cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest
> > way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
> >
> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> > that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> > throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Crispin
> >> From BB9900
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> >> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:44:54 +1200
> From: "mtrevor" <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <FA1CB8A71E934C1EAEA1B1CEECD3F7F3 at HP29397140882>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Paul
> If you start making this unit please advise.
> Thank you
>
> Michael N Trevor
> Majuro
> Marshall islands
> .
> n
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Olivier
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
> large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make
> TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes
> is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor
> that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
> lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>
> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>
> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>
> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>
> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>
>
>
> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>
> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls
> are used.
>
> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>
> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store
> and load.
>
> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
> of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>
> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
> certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> wrote:
>
> See comments below.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul O
>
> The reason is economics.
>
>
>
> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are
> quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived
> for over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas
> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of
> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
> cook a meal.
>
>
>
> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is
> viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>
>
>
> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in
> getting pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping
> coffee husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that
> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>
>
>
> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the
> price of coal per delivered MJ.
>
>
>
> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>
> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>
> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> properly.
>
>
>
> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>
> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>
>
>
>
> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
> economic equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however
> the same energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and
> raw husk supply.
>
>
>
> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given
> area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
> stimulate the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>
>
>
> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet
> that includes the whole value chain?
>
>
>
> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison
> between options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route
> would be the most viable.
>
>
>
> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>
>
>
> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but
> that is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>
>
>
> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not
> have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not
> focus more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas
> to cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
> wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source
> of energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>
>
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
>
>
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> >From BB9900
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
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>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
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>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:57:36 +0200
> From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: "list Stove" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
> Message-ID: <2F23AD692BBE4FF8881836667994F938 at PaalPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
> reply-type=original
>
> Ron
> The horizontal PP TLUD-ND is in some ways different from the vertical
> TLUDs.
> The fuel which can be pellets or chopped wood is placed into 1, 2 or 3
> vertical simple containers called the energy units, ignited and put into
> the
> stove. One unit is designed for fast cooking and one or two for simmering.
> The units has no regulation apart from you just use one unit for smaller
> cooking like tea or coffee, two units for heavier cooking and 3 units for
> bigger pots. For simmering you need only one unit. For household cooking
> you
> will always at least have 2 blazes working if you need it. For
> institutional
> kitchen with huge pots you probably need four units for coming to a boil
> and
> then only one unit for simmering. The temperature in the bakery oven will
> cool down by moister from bread or food while cooking.
> The fast cooking unit for household cooking are designed for 360 gr pellets
> and will burn with a smoke and soot-less flame of around 700?C for about 45
> minutes. The simmering unit is designed for 360 gr pellets and will burn
> with a flame of 4-500 ?C for about 60-70 minutes. It will also work with 3
> energy units with the same effect. It?s still under trial.
> A bigger unit for institutional cooking is designed 1.2 kg pellets that
> will
> burn with a smokeless flame of 750 ?C for about 70-80 minutes without any
> refilling.
> All units are producing 20 -25% biochar and easy to recover.
> For more information paaw at online.no
> Regards Paal W
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> From: Ron
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:52 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; paaw at online.no
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>
> Paal. Cc list
>
> 1. I don't recall seeing the word "horizontal" with Peko Pe before. Can
> you explain or point me to a site?
>
> 2. I agree about the temperatures needed for various cooking tasks. How
> are you accomplishing this wide range with the Peko Pe?
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>
> > Stovers
> > Crispin is right, the best insulation is air, and arranged the right way
> > it will give some preheating to the intake off secondary air at the same
> > time as it will prevent destroying the metal. By natural draft you will
> > have a yellow charcoal with a temperature of about 900?C and by forced
> air
> > you will have white charcoal of a temperature of about 1000 ?C, the
> > temperature blacksmiths need for forcing and welding steel.
> > But what is convenient temperature for cooking? It is definitely not 1000
> > ?C. On top of charcoal it can sometimes be too hot, on open fire from
> wood
> > sometimes too low. I have found that my horizontal TLUD ND PP stove works
> > best with a temperature about 700 ?C for cooking, about 450 ?C for
> > simmering and around 200 ?C for baking bread. And to obtain that, I need
> > no insulation anywhere in the stove.
> > Regards Paal W
> >
> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:26 PM
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
> >
> > [Default] On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:10:58 -0700,Bob Tingleff
> > <bob at tingleff.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Belonio's TLUD design calls for an insulated gasifier reactor, with the
> >> inner cylinder being 20 gauge stainless, though Paul O's version is not
> >> insulated. And Rocket stoves are insulated. So I'm surprised to see the
> >> comments below pass without any discussion. I wonder if Belonio's rice
> >> husk
> >> gasifier stoves have longevity problems.
> >
> > Insulation is necessary to reduce heat loss, so we are not saying don
> > not use insulation. What we are saying is if the insulation is added
> > to the "cool" side of a metal surface in the stove then it can cause
> > the metal work to get to a temperature at which it fails, normally by
> > oxidation.
> >
> > On our high pressure pyrolysis unit we had blocks of ceramic
> > insulation inside a steel containment but it was necessary to allow
> > for cooling of the outer skin because stray hot gas could get past the
> > insulation joints to heat the steel.
> >
> > Steel seems to survive the temperature in a TLUD quite well, but this
> > is only a temperature of around 600C. If the TLUD pyrolysis front
> > reaches the primary air inlet and the char starts burning in updraught
> > mode the temperature rapidly reaches over 1100C and steel fails
> > quickly.
> >
> > AJH
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date: 06/08/13
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6396 - Release Date: 06/09/13
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:29:06 +0700
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID:
> <CAOreFvZ++V896=-
> wGq3s8FVqMPvD1TnMdhGWdZ1fWPx8S8_b0g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
> machines throughout the world.
>
> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>
> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
> be prepared.
>
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>
> > **
> > Dear Paul
> > If you start making this unit please advise.
> > Thank you
> >
> > Michael N Trevor
> > Majuro
> > Marshall islands
> > .
> > n
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> > *What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> > that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> > throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
> > *
> >
> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
> > large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make
> > TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes
> > is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor
> > that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
> > lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
> >
> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
> >
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
> >
> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
> > used.
> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
> > matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
> > load.
> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
> of
> > a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
> certain
> > level of convenience and ease of use.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> See comments below.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> >> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Paul O
> >>>
> >>> The reason is economics.
> >>>
> >>
> >> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
> >> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
> >> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> >> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG
> gas
> >> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> >> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one
> dreamed of
> >> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas
> to
> >> cook a meal.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable
> to
> >>> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >>>
> >>
> >> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
> >> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
> >> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> >> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
> >> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
> >> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
> >> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
> >> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be,
> not to
> >> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas
> that
> >> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
> >> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price
> >>> of coal per delivered MJ.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> >> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> >> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> >> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
> >> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> >>> properly.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> >> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
> economic
> >>> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the
> same
> >>> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
> husk
> >>> supply.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
> >> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
> stimulate
> >> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
> >>
> >>
> >>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
> >>> includes the whole value chain?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
> >>> options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would
> >>> be the most viable.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but
> that
> >>> is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
> >> an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus
> >> more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to
> >> cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
> wisest
> >> way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
> >> energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
> >>
> >> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> >> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
> kitchens
> >> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Crispin
> >>> >From BB9900
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> >>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >
> >>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> >> Dalat
> >> Vietnam
> >>
> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
> >> http://www.esrla.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/a594fe79/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:25:19 +1200
> From: "mtrevor" <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <7530AA392F95469A8B8CFD35203788CC at HP29397140882>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally
> the odd man out.
>
> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
> cake.
> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
> you do not approve
> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>
> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
> the husks are spread ove an area
> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>
> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
> Stanley's
> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> processing of biomass waste would be important
> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>
> There are some real challenges involved here.
>
> Michael N Trevor.
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Olivier
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
> Michael,
>
>
> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>
> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>
> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
> machines throughout the world.
>
>
>
> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>
> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>
>
>
> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>
> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need
> to be prepared.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul
> If you start making this unit please advise.
> Thank you
>
> Michael N Trevor
> Majuro
> Marshall islands
> .
> n
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Olivier
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
>
>
> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
> others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not
> make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that
> changes is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a
> reactor that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
> lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>
> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>
> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>
> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>
> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>
>
>
> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>
> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice
> hulls are used.
>
> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
> particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>
> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to
> store and load.
>
> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice
> hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>
> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
> certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <
> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>
> See comments below.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul O
>
> The reason is economics.
>
>
>
> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are
> quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived
> for over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas
> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of
> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
> cook a meal.
>
>
>
> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is
> viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>
>
>
> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in
> getting pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping
> coffee husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that
> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>
>
>
> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the
> price of coal per delivered MJ.
>
>
>
> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more
> per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>
> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
> that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>
> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
> prepared properly.
>
>
>
> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>
> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>
>
>
>
> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
> economic equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however
> the same energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and
> raw husk supply.
>
>
>
> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
> given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets
> will stimulate the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this
> demand.
>
>
>
> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
> spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
>
>
>
> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison
> between options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route
> would be the most viable.
>
>
>
> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>
>
>
> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations,
> but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>
>
>
> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK
> not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not
> focus more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas
> to cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
> wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source
> of energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>
>
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
> follow.
>
>
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> >From BB9900
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
> web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
> web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
> 06/10/13
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/3b64e01f/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 05:25:31 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <007701ce669e$c491d2c0$4db57840$@trmiles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to go all
> the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the crumbled cake
> through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out the pellets. Make's a
> great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini version of Richard's press.
> There are Chinese versions of course.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> mtrevor
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally the
> odd man out.
>
>
>
> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
> cake.
>
>
> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
> you
> do not approve
>
> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>
>
>
> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
> the husks are spread ove an area
>
> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>
>
>
> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
> Stanley's
>
> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> processing
> of biomass waste would be important
>
> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>
>
>
> There are some real challenges involved here.
>
>
>
> Michael N Trevor.
>
>
>
> .
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>
> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>
> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
> machines throughout the world.
>
>
>
> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>
> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>
>
>
> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>
> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
> be prepared.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul
>
> If you start making this unit please advise.
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Michael N Trevor
>
> Majuro
>
> Marshall islands
>
> .
>
> n
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others large
> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that
> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
> height
> of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that uses
> undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight, mobile
> and much cheaper.
>
> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUl
> tra/001.pdf
> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>
> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>
> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>
> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>
>
>
> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>
> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
> used.
>
> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>
> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
> load.
>
> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls of
> a
> bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>
> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
> level of convenience and ease of use.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> wrote:
>
> See comments below.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> <crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul O
>
> The reason is economics.
>
>
>
> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> upon
> densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to
> cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near Dallas,
> and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making
> wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to cook a
> meal.
>
>
>
>
> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>
>
>
> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a thoroughly
> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not
> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the highest
> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
> power
> stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace bottled gas
> or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves
> would then be returned to the soil.
>
>
>
>
> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of
> coal per delivered MJ.
>
>
>
> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>
> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>
> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> properly.
>
>
>
> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>
> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>
>
>
>
>
> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same
> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw husk
> supply.
>
>
>
> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will stimulate
> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>
>
> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
> includes the whole value chain?
>
>
>
>
> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
> options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route would be the
> most viable.
>
>
>
> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>
>
>
>
> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that is
> subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>
>
>
> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have an
> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
> on
> producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
> meal?
> Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
> proceed,
> especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to cook a
> meal.
> Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
>
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> >From BB9900
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _____
>
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> _____
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> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _____
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> _____
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:19:39 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <51B723EB.6040201 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Tom,
>
> My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
> maker. Please provide a link.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
> >
> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to
> > go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the
> > crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out
> > the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini
> > version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions of course.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
> > generally the odd man out.
> >
> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
> > cake.
> >
> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
> > though you do not approve
> >
> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
> >
> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
> >
> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
> >
> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
> > Richard Stanley's
> >
> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> > processing of biomass waste would be important
> >
> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
> >
> > There are some real challenges involved here.
> >
> > Michael N Trevor.
> >
> > .
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
> >
> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural
> > binder.
> >
> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of
> > pellet machines throughout the world.
> >
> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
> research.
> >
> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
> >
> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
> >
> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that
> > need to be prepared.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > If you start making this unit please advise.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Michael N Trevor
> >
> > Majuro
> >
> > Marshall islands
> >
> > .
> >
> > n
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
> > units are in place, the rest will follow./
> >
> >
> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
> > others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why
> > can we not make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel?
> > The only thing that changes is the height of the reactor: it's
> > much less than the height of a reactor that uses undensified
> > biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
> > mobile and much cheaper.
> >
> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
> >
> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
> >
> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
> >
> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5
> > kgs.
> >
> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
> >
> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
> > rice hulls are used.
> >
> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
> > particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
> >
> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance
> > to store and load.
> >
> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose
> > rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
> >
> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>> wrote:
> >
> > See comments below.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul O
> >
> > The reason is economics.
> >
> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics
> > are quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn
> > fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West Flanders in
> > Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon densely populated
> > rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to cook a
> > meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no
> > one dreamed of making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and
> > using them to make syngas to cook a meal.
> >
> >
> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >
> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure
> > in getting pellets to market. How does one explain the
> > economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from Brazil to
> > Holland as we see in this link?
> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is
> > a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to
> > transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world to
> > provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use of
> > these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a
> > syngas that would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil
> > fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves would then
> > be returned to the soil.
> >
> >
> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher
> > than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
> >
> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> >
> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
> > that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of
> coal.
> >
> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
> >
> >
> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
> > prepared properly.
> >
> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> >
> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
> > possible the economic equation will change with the
> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
> > production rate will increase the demand for transport and
> > raw husk supply.
> >
> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
> > given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand
> > for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
> >
> >
> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
> >
> >
> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
> > comparison between options. In at least /some
> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the most
> > viable.
> >
> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
> >
> >
> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and
> > the working poor.
> >
> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the
> > UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once
> > again, should we not focus more on producing syngas from
> > pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a meal? Burning
> > pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
> > proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station
> > altogether?
> >
> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
> > units are in place, the rest will follow.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> > >From BB9900
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> >
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
> > our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> > our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
> > web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
> > Date: 06/10/13
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> > site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
> > 06/10/13
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:50:52 +0000 (UTC)
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> To: Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no>
> Cc: list Stove <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
> Message-ID:
> <
> 1777453040.123352.1370958652029.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Paal cc "Stoves"
>
> Thanks for the added information. I have seen a video of the three working
> together. Your word "horizontal" makes a little more sense.
>
> The reason I asked is that, in general, I don't think it possible to make
> char when the primary air flow is horizontal. The reason is that the
> primary air will tend to flow over, rather than through, the "slumping"
> fuel bed.
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: "list Stove" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: "Ron" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:57:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>
> Ron
> The horizontal PP TLUD-ND is in some ways different from the vertical
> TLUDs.
> The fuel which can be pellets or chopped wood is placed into 1, 2 or 3
> vertical simple containers called the energy units, ignited and put into
> the
> stove. One unit is designed for fast cooking and one or two for simmering.
> The units has no regulation apart from you just use one unit for smaller
> cooking like tea or coffee, two units for heavier cooking and 3 units for
> bigger pots. For simmering you need only one unit. For household cooking
> you
> will always at least have 2 blazes working if you need it. For
> institutional
> kitchen with huge pots you probably need four units for coming to a boil
> and
> then only one unit for simmering. The temperature in the bakery oven will
> cool down by moister from bread or food while cooking.
> The fast cooking unit for household cooking are designed for 360 gr pellets
> and will burn with a smoke and soot-less flame of around 700?C for about 45
> minutes. The simmering unit is designed for 360 gr pellets and will burn
> with a flame of 4-500 ?C for about 60-70 minutes. It will also work with 3
> energy units with the same effect. It?s still under trial.
> A bigger unit for institutional cooking is designed 1.2 kg pellets that
> will
> burn with a smokeless flame of 750 ?C for about 70-80 minutes without any
> refilling.
> All units are producing 20 -25% biochar and easy to recover.
> For more information paaw at online.no
> Regards Paal W
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> From: Ron
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:52 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; paaw at online.no
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>
> Paal. Cc list
>
> 1. I don't recall seeing the word "horizontal" with Peko Pe before. Can
> you explain or point me to a site?
>
> 2. I agree about the temperatures needed for various cooking tasks. How
> are you accomplishing this wide range with the Peko Pe?
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>
> > Stovers
> > Crispin is right, the best insulation is air, and arranged the right way
> > it will give some preheating to the intake off secondary air at the same
> > time as it will prevent destroying the metal. By natural draft you will
> > have a yellow charcoal with a temperature of about 900?C and by forced
> air
> > you will have white charcoal of a temperature of about 1000 ?C, the
> > temperature blacksmiths need for forcing and welding steel.
> > But what is convenient temperature for cooking? It is definitely not 1000
> > ?C. On top of charcoal it can sometimes be too hot, on open fire from
> wood
> > sometimes too low. I have found that my horizontal TLUD ND PP stove works
> > best with a temperature about 700 ?C for cooking, about 450 ?C for
> > simmering and around 200 ?C for baking bread. And to obtain that, I need
> > no insulation anywhere in the stove.
> > Regards Paal W
> >
> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:26 PM
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
> >
> > [Default] On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:10:58 -0700,Bob Tingleff
> > <bob at tingleff.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Belonio's TLUD design calls for an insulated gasifier reactor, with the
> >> inner cylinder being 20 gauge stainless, though Paul O's version is not
> >> insulated. And Rocket stoves are insulated. So I'm surprised to see the
> >> comments below pass without any discussion. I wonder if Belonio's rice
> >> husk
> >> gasifier stoves have longevity problems.
> >
> > Insulation is necessary to reduce heat loss, so we are not saying don
> > not use insulation. What we are saying is if the insulation is added
> > to the "cool" side of a metal surface in the stove then it can cause
> > the metal work to get to a temperature at which it fails, normally by
> > oxidation.
> >
> > On our high pressure pyrolysis unit we had blocks of ceramic
> > insulation inside a steel containment but it was necessary to allow
> > for cooling of the outer skin because stray hot gas could get past the
> > insulation joints to heat the steel.
> >
> > Steel seems to survive the temperature in a TLUD quite well, but this
> > is only a temperature of around 600C. If the TLUD pyrolysis front
> > reaches the primary air inlet and the char starts burning in updraught
> > mode the temperature rapidly reaches over 1100C and steel fails
> > quickly.
> >
> > AJH
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date: 06/08/13
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6396 - Release Date: 06/09/13
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:13:45 +0300
> From: Bjarne Laustsen <bjarne at kiwlau.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <51B73EA9.7090800 at kiwlau.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> One of the problem with pellet making from agricultural residues like
> wheat husk or rice husk is that there a lot of cheap pellet mills
> around. However most of these pellet mills are designed for making feed
> pellets from relative soft materials. These machines can not make fuel
> pellets from agricultural residues in a rational and economic way.
> You will have to run the materials through the mills several times for
> getting some kind of pellets and there will be a lot of maintenance on
> the pellet mills. We have had bad experiences with that.
> Any reasonable commercial production of fuel pellets will require pellet
> mills that are designed for that, and they are somehow more expensive.
> So if you want to go in to pellet production you need too look careful
> around and find appropriate equipment. Else you end up with another
> failed densification system.
>
> Bjarne Laustsen
>
> On 6/11/2013 3:25 PM, Tom Miles wrote:
> >
> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to
> > go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the
> > crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out
> > the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini
> > version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions of course.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
> > generally the odd man out.
> >
> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
> > cake.
> >
> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
> > though you do not approve
> >
> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
> >
> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
> >
> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
> >
> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
> > Richard Stanley's
> >
> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> > processing of biomass waste would be important
> >
> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
> >
> > There are some real challenges involved here.
> >
> > Michael N Trevor.
> >
> > .
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
> >
> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural
> > binder.
> >
> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of
> > pellet machines throughout the world.
> >
> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
> research.
> >
> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
> >
> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
> >
> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that
> > need to be prepared.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > If you start making this unit please advise.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Michael N Trevor
> >
> > Majuro
> >
> > Marshall islands
> >
> > .
> >
> > n
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
> > units are in place, the rest will follow./
> >
> >
> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
> > others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why
> > can we not make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel?
> > The only thing that changes is the height of the reactor: it's
> > much less than the height of a reactor that uses undensified
> > biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
> > mobile and much cheaper.
> >
> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
> >
> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
> >
> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
> >
> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5
> > kgs.
> >
> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
> >
> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
> > rice hulls are used.
> >
> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
> > particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
> >
> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance
> > to store and load.
> >
> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose
> > rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
> >
> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>> wrote:
> >
> > See comments below.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul O
> >
> > The reason is economics.
> >
> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics
> > are quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn
> > fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West Flanders in
> > Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon densely populated
> > rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to cook a
> > meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no
> > one dreamed of making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and
> > using them to make syngas to cook a meal.
> >
> >
> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >
> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure
> > in getting pellets to market. How does one explain the
> > economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from Brazil to
> > Holland as we see in this link?
> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is
> > a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to
> > transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world to
> > provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use of
> > these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a
> > syngas that would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil
> > fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves would then
> > be returned to the soil.
> >
> >
> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher
> > than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
> >
> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> >
> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
> > that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of
> coal.
> >
> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
> >
> >
> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
> > prepared properly.
> >
> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> >
> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
> > possible the economic equation will change with the
> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
> > production rate will increase the demand for transport and
> > raw husk supply.
> >
> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
> > given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand
> > for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
> >
> >
> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
> >
> >
> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
> > comparison between options. In at least /some
> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the most
> > viable.
> >
> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
> >
> >
> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and
> > the working poor.
> >
> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the
> > UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once
> > again, should we not focus more on producing syngas from
> > pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a meal? Burning
> > pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
> > proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station
> > altogether?
> >
> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
> > units are in place, the rest will follow.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> > >From BB9900
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> >
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
> > our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
> > our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
> > web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
> > Date: 06/10/13
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
> > 06/10/13
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> >
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> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/29081357/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:14:34 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Paul Anderson'" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <002c01ce66be$c3f7a810$4be6f830$@trmiles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> Look for their meat grinder. If you have a cake or meal like fuel you can
> make a wet meal and extrude spaghetti-like pellets that are cut off as you
> make them. Then dry it. You end up with a dried lump like Jeff Davis'
> fireballs - a low density but nicely shaped fuel pellet. Dog food is made
> the same way.
>
>
>
> We use the technique for making pellets for fiber and seed mixes but there
> is no reason why you can't make fuel pellets that way. We have seen this
> technique used for cooking stoves in small projects in India and China.
>
>
>
> The advantage for a stove fuel is that making a wet meal and drying it is a
> low energy process. When we used to make ag pellets with binders we
> probably
> used about 30-50 kWh/ton. In the 1980s pellet mills were re-designed to
> make
> dense fuel pellets that depend on heating the fiber to 90 C in the die to
> enhance adhesion through hydrogen (paper) bonding and lignin flow. Specific
> power consumption increased to 75-100 kWh/ton in the pellet mill because
> yiou are converting electrical energy to heat. Particles need to be dry
> (<8%
> MC) and fine (<6 mm) to make a good pellet. Christa has a small, capacity,
> mill that makes fuel pellets in this way. There are also the Chinese mills
> with vertical dies that can be used.
>
>
>
> Remember Jeff Davis' fireballs? He put wet fuel into a cement mixer, rolled
> it into balls and dried it out. He showed that it made great fuel for a
> TLUD gasifier. Why not a stove?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:20 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Cc: Tom Miles
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
> maker. Please provide a link.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
>
> The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to go all
> the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the crumbled cake
> through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out the pellets. Make's a
> great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini version of Richard's press.
> There are Chinese versions of course.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> mtrevor
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally the
> odd man out.
>
>
>
> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
> cake.
>
>
> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
> you
> do not approve
>
> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>
>
>
> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
> the husks are spread ove an area
>
> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>
>
>
> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
> Stanley's
>
> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> processing
> of biomass waste would be important
>
> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>
>
>
> There are some real challenges involved here.
>
>
>
> Michael N Trevor.
>
>
>
> .
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>
> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>
> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>
> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
> machines throughout the world.
>
>
>
> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>
> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>
>
>
> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>
> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
> be prepared.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul
>
> If you start making this unit please advise.
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Michael N Trevor
>
> Majuro
>
> Marshall islands
>
> .
>
> n
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
>
>
> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others large
> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that
> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
> height
> of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that uses
> undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight, mobile
> and much cheaper.
>
> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUl
> tra/001.pdf
> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>
> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>
> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>
> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>
>
>
> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>
> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
> used.
>
> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>
> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
> load.
>
> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls of
> a
> bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>
> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
> level of convenience and ease of use.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> wrote:
>
> See comments below.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> <crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Paul O
>
> The reason is economics.
>
>
>
> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
> upon
> densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to
> cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near Dallas,
> and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making
> wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to cook a
> meal.
>
>
>
>
> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>
>
>
> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a thoroughly
> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not
> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the highest
> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
> power
> stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace bottled gas
> or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves
> would then be returned to the soil.
>
>
>
>
> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of
> coal per delivered MJ.
>
>
>
> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>
> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>
> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
> properly.
>
>
>
> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>
> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>
>
>
>
>
> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same
> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw husk
> supply.
>
>
>
> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will stimulate
> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>
>
> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
> includes the whole value chain?
>
>
>
>
> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
> options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route would be the
> most viable.
>
>
>
> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>
>
>
>
> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that is
> subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>
>
>
> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have an
> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
> on
> producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
> meal?
> Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
> proceed,
> especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to cook a
> meal.
> Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>
> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>
>
>
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> >From BB9900
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _____
>
> _______________________________________________
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> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
> _____
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
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> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _____
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
> _____
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:39:45 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> Message-ID: <070701ce66c2$4c086430$e4192c90$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Bjarne
>
>
>
> >Any reasonable commercial production of fuel pellets will require pellet
> mills that are designed for that, and they are somehow more expensive.
>
>
>
> The Chinese are looking very hard into this and have an aggressive
> pelleting
> programme that gives tons output per year as the metric. They have major
> problems with equipment at any price. Teams are working on how to solve the
> materials and wear issues. This was reported in detail at the conference in
> October last year at the China Agricultural University, Prof Dong in
> charge.
>
>
>
> The economic are strongly affected by transport issues of the product, and
> the cost of replacing wearing parts, even when made from tungsten
> materials.
> Agricultural wastes are very dirty and abrasive. If you want to make char,
> make it from the uncompressed materials just as AD Karve suggests. If you
> want to make fuel, try to get the best materials and pellet or briquette
> it.
>
>
>
> If you want to generate power from the char making process, no problem
> though the infrastructure required would be a problem.
>
>
>
> Incidentally the processing centres that take in the agri-wastes do not get
> involved in the transport of the materials from the farmer to the centre.
> That is up to the farmer who is paid for the material, delivered.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:44:47 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> Cc: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Meat grinder fuels for TLUDs was Re: wheat husk
> pellets
> Message-ID: <51B7620F.6050804 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Here is a link for largest of grinders from Cabelas. US$680
>
> >
> http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas-Commercial-Grade-1-12-hp-Electric-Grinder/1646476.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26No%3D0%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dmeat%2Bgrinder%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3D%26WTz_stype%3DSP%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26recordsPerPage%3D20%26search%3Dmeat%2Bgrinder%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=meat+grinder&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products
>
> We would LOVE to have some fuel samples that have been made with things
> like meat grinders. As Paal Wendelbo correctly says, "Start with the
> fuels!!" With an assured fuel supply at reasonable cost and quality,
> getting a TLUD to work well with it is relatively straight forward.
>
> I cannot take on this fuels research, but I will assist others. I hope
> that others are already doing it or are willing to get involved.
> Looking forward to comments.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/11/2013 11:14 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > Look for their meat grinder. If you have a cake or meal like fuel you
> > can make a wet meal and extrude spaghetti-like pellets that are cut
> > off as you make them. Then dry it. You end up with a dried lump like
> > Jeff Davis' fireballs -- a low density but nicely shaped fuel pellet.
> > Dog food is made the same way.
> >
> > We use the technique for making pellets for fiber and seed mixes but
> > there is no reason why you can't make fuel pellets that way. We have
> > seen this technique used for cooking stoves in small projects in India
> > and China.
> >
> > The advantage for a stove fuel is that making a wet meal and drying it
> > is a low energy process. When we used to make ag pellets with binders
> > we probably used about 30-50 kWh/ton. In the 1980s pellet mills were
> > re-designed to make dense fuel pellets that depend on heating the
> > fiber to 90 C in the die to enhance adhesion through hydrogen (paper)
> > bonding and lignin flow. Specific power consumption increased to
> > 75-100 kWh/ton in the pellet mill because yiou are converting
> > electrical energy to heat. Particles need to be dry (<8% MC) and fine
> > (<6 mm) to make a good pellet. Christa has a small, capacity, mill
> > that makes fuel pellets in this way. There are also the Chinese mills
> > with vertical dies that can be used.
> >
> > Remember Jeff Davis' fireballs? He put wet fuel into a cement mixer,
> > rolled it into balls and dried it out. He showed that it made great
> > fuel for a TLUD gasifier. Why not a stove?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > *From:*Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:20 AM
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > *Cc:* Tom Miles
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
> > maker. Please provide a link.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype:
> paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> >
> > On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
> >
> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have
> > to go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put
> > the crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and
> > dry out the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's.
> > It's a mini version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions
> > of course.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
> > generally the odd man out.
> >
> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for
> > the cake.
> >
> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
> > though you do not approve
> >
> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
> >
> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
> >
> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
> >
> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
> > Richard Stanley's
> >
> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
> > processing of biomass waste would be important
> >
> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly
> > impossible.
> >
> > There are some real challenges involved here.
> >
> > Michael N Trevor.
> >
> > .
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
> >
> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
> >
> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a
> > natural binder.
> >
> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance
> > of pellet machines throughout the world.
> >
> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
> > research.
> >
> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire
> > value.
> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
> >
> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal
> preparation.
> >
> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust,
> > that need to be prepared.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > If you start making this unit please advise.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Michael N Trevor
> >
> > Majuro
> >
> > Marshall islands
> >
> > .
> >
> > n
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
> >
> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units
> > could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world.
> > Once these units are in place, the rest will follow./
> >
> >
> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and
> > many others large retailers in the USA all carry wood
> > pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that make use of these
> > pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the height
> > of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a
> > reactor that uses undensified biomass. This means that the
> > TLUD is small, lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
> >
> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
> >
> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
> >
> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
> >
> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than
> > 1.5 kgs.
> >
> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
> >
> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
> > rice hulls are used.
> >
> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much
> > less particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice
> > hulls.
> >
> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real
> > nuisance to store and load.
> >
> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in
> > loose rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
> >
> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > See comments below.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul O
> >
> > The reason is economics.
> >
> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the
> > economics are quite good, and yet we complacently continue
> > to burn fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West
> > Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon
> > densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily
> > burned LPG gas to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie,
> > Texas, a small town near Dallas, and once again, wheat
> > fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making wheat
> > husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas
> > to cook a meal.
> >
> >
> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
> >
> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of
> > infrastructure in getting pellets to market. How does one
> > explain the economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from
> > Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This
> > is a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense
> > to transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world
> > to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use
> > of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not
> > to burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from
> > them a syngas that would replace bottled gas or other
> > forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these
> > stoves would then be returned to the soil.
> >
> >
> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far
> > higher than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
> >
> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
> >
> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar
> > infrastructure that underlies the mining, preparation and
> > transportation of coal.
> >
> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass
> > pellets.
> >
> >
> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have
> > been prepared properly.
> >
> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
> >
> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
> > possible the economic equation will change with the
> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
> > production rate will increase the demand for transport
> > and raw husk supply.
> >
> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers
> > in a given area will create a demand for pellets, and the
> > demand for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
> >
> >
> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
> >
> >
> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
> > comparison between options. In at least /some
> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the
> > most viable.
> >
> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say
> > "many".
> >
> >
> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies
> > and the working poor.
> >
> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does
> > the UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And
> > once again, should we not focus more on producing syngas
> > from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
> > meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not
> > the wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity
> > is used as a source of energy to cook a meal. Why not
> > bypass the power station altogether?
> >
> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units
> > could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world.
> > Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> > >From BB9900
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
> > Sender: "Stoves"
> > <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
> >
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
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> > Vietnam
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> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
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> >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 34, Issue 18
> **************************************
>
--
Art Donnelly
President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
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