[Stoves] wheat husk pellets
Paul Olivier
paul.olivier at esrla.com
Tue Jun 11 19:51:48 CDT 2013
Yes, I know Gemco.
Two people in Vietnam bought their smallest unit.
But it did not work very well, certainly not to the capacity Gemco claimed.
I would guess that their larger units work better.
Paul Olivier
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>wrote:
> Hi all,
> There is a Chinese pellet mill manufacturer who you should become familiar
> with:
> GEMCO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2HSj0FU8_E
> http://www.gemco-machine.com/Pellet-Mill/
> We do not have one of their mills yet, but are trying to raise the money.
> We have been communicating with them and they seem to be very customer
> service oriented.
> best,
> Art Donnelly
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:44 AM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
>> 2. Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
>> Ecol?gicos (rogerio at ecofogao.com.br)
>> 3. Re: Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
>> Ecol?gicos (Paul Anderson)
>> 4. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
>> 5. Re: wheat husk pellets (mtrevor)
>> 6. Re: Insulation and stove life (Paal Wendelbo)
>> 7. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Olivier)
>> 8. Re: wheat husk pellets (mtrevor)
>> 9. Re: wheat husk pellets (Tom Miles)
>> 10. Re: wheat husk pellets (Paul Anderson)
>> 11. Re: Insulation and stove life (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>> 12. Re: wheat husk pellets (Bjarne Laustsen)
>> 13. Re: wheat husk pellets (Tom Miles)
>> 14. Re: wheat husk pellets (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> 15. Meat grinder fuels for TLUDs was Re: wheat husk pellets
>> (Paul Anderson)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:11:13 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Crispin P-P <crispinpigott at gmail.com>, Discussion of biomass
>> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAOreFvZ1E4V8H1h6tnBuQW7UJhexByFta14m8fVJodXeB74H7Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> See comments below.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Paul O
>> >
>> > The reason is economics.
>> >
>>
>> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
>> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
>> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG
>> gas
>> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed
>> of
>> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
>> cook a meal.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
>> > transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>> >
>>
>> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
>> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
>> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> thoroughly
>> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
>> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why
>> not
>> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> highest
>> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
>> power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace
>> bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from
>> these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price
>> of
>> > coal per delivered MJ.
>> >
>>
>> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> > properly.
>> >
>>
>> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
>> > equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the
>> same
>> > energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
>> husk
>> > supply.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
>> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate
>> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>>
>>
>> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
>> > includes the whole value chain?
>> >
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
>> > options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would
>> be
>> > the most viable.
>> >
>>
>> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>>
>>
>> >
>> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that
>> > is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>> >
>>
>> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
>> an
>> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
>> on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
>> meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
>> proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to
>> cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>>
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> > From BB9900
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 17:53:17 -0700
>> From: <rogerio at ecofogao.com.br>
>> To: <estufas at bioenergylists.org>, <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es
>> Ecol?gicos
>> Message-ID: <004601ce663e$0fd7ced0$2f876c70$@ecofogao.com.br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es Ecol?gicos
>>
>> Por uma iniciativa da PROLENHA e do CEPAN, se realizar? nos dias 11 e 12
>> de Julho em Recife, o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro de Fog?es Ecol?gicos.
>>
>> Os objetivos do semin?rio ser?o os de discutir a problem?tica ocasionada
>> pelo uso de fog?es a lenha primitivos no Brasil, e analisar as poss?veis
>> solu??es; bem como trocar experi?ncias sobre a promo??o de fog?es
>> ecol?gicos entre as diversas organiza??es presentes; al?m de propor
>> iniciativas e estrat?gias de desenvolvimento para um maior acesso das
>> fam?lias as tecnologias de fog?es ecol?gicos.
>>
>> No Brasil aproximadamente nove milh?es de fam?lias brasileiras ainda
>> utilizam biomassa para cozinhar, das quais 50% est?o no nordeste. A grande
>> maioria utiliza diariamente fog?es de desenho primitivo, muito ineficientes
>> e que emitem grande quantidade de fuma?a, o que leva a morte prematura de
>> 21 mil pessoas todos os anos no Pa?s, devido a problemas de sa?de
>> decorrentes da exposi??o ? fuma?a.
>>
>> Adicionalmente, estes primitivos fog?es consomem grande quantidade de
>> energia de forma ineficiente, principalmente a lenha, ocasionando uma
>> press?o insustent?vel dos recursos naturais em biomas como a Caatinga, o
>> Cerrado, e a Mata Atl?ntica.
>>
>> Algumas organiza??es localizadas nestes biomas j? est?o se mobilizando
>> para reduzir o impacto destes fog?es primitivos, adotando projetos para a
>> dissemina??o de fog?es ecol?gicos, os quais s?o mais eficientes e de
>> emiss?es mais limpas, como uma estrat?gia de conviv?ncia sustent?vel do
>> agricultor com o bioma em que habita. O objetivo ? tornar o uso da lenha
>> sustent?vel, al?m de evitar problemas de sa?de, melhorar a qualidade de
>> vida destas fam?lias, e evitar a emiss?o de gases de efeito estufa.
>>
>> Para mais informa??es acesse www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe
>>
>> http://www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe/index.html
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:34:55 -0500
>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Cc: estufas at bioenergylists.org, rogerio at ecofogao.com.br
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre
>> Fog?es Ecol?gicos
>> Message-ID: <51B68CCF.2030807 at ilstu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Rogerio,
>>
>> Infelizmente nao posso assitir nas datas marcadas. Favor incluir no
>> programa umas informacoes sobre os fogoes gasificadore TLUD. Estou
>> disposto a trabalhar com os brasileiros interessados nas gasificadoes
>> para cosinas domesticas e tambem para instituicoes .
>>
>> Abracos,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 6/10/2013 7:53 PM, rogerio at ecofogao.com.br wrote:
>> >
>> > *_Vem a? o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro sobre Fog?es Ecol?gicos_*
>> >
>> > Por uma iniciativa da PROLENHA e do CEPAN, se realizar? nos dias 11 e
>> 12 de Julho em Recife, o Primeiro Semin?rio Brasileiro de Fog?es Ecol?gicos.
>> >
>> > Os objetivos do semin?rio ser?o os de discutir a problem?tica
>> ocasionada pelo uso de fog?es a lenha primitivos no Brasil, e analisar as
>> poss?veis solu??es; bem como trocar experi?ncias sobre a promo??o de fog?es
>> ecol?gicos entre as diversas organiza??es presentes; al?m de propor
>> iniciativas e estrat?gias de desenvolvimento para um maior acesso das
>> fam?lias as tecnologias de fog?es ecol?gicos.
>> >
>> > No Brasil aproximadamente nove milh?es de fam?lias brasileiras ainda
>> utilizam biomassa para cozinhar, das quais 50% est?o no nordeste. A grande
>> maioria utiliza diariamente fog?es de desenho primitivo, muito ineficientes
>> e que emitem grande quantidade de fuma?a, o que leva a morte prematura de
>> 21 mil pessoas todos os anos no Pa?s, devido a problemas de sa?de
>> decorrentes da exposi??o ? fuma?a.
>> >
>> > Adicionalmente, estes primitivos fog?es consomem grande quantidade de
>> energia de forma ineficiente, principalmente a lenha, ocasionando uma
>> press?o insustent?vel dos recursos naturais em biomas como a Caatinga, o
>> Cerrado, e a Mata Atl?ntica.
>> >
>> > Algumas organiza??es localizadas nestes biomas j? est?o se mobilizando
>> para reduzir o impacto destes fog?es primitivos, adotando projetos para a
>> dissemina??o de fog?es ecol?gicos, os quais s?o mais eficientes e de
>> emiss?es mais limpas, como uma estrat?gia de conviv?ncia sustent?vel do
>> agricultor com o bioma em que habita. O objetivo ? tornar o uso da lenha
>> sustent?vel, al?m de evitar problemas de sa?de, melhorar a qualidade de
>> vida destas fam?lias, e evitar a emiss?o de gases de efeito estufa.
>> >
>> > Para mais informa??es acesse www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe
>> >
>> > http://www.prolenha.org.br/sbfe/index.html
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:54:29 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAOreFvZYHbuc-Bx4OkLPMMiu2Z5cOcA4qzMD9f_rCiDg4e5iZw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> *What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.*
>>
>> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
>> large
>> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs
>> that
>> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
>> height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that
>> uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
>> mobile and much cheaper.
>>
>> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>>
>> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
>> used.
>> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
>> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
>> load.
>> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls of
>> a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
>> level of convenience and ease of use.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > See comments below.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> > crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear Paul O
>> >>
>> >> The reason is economics.
>> >>
>> >
>> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
>> > good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
>> > over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> > upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG
>> gas
>> > to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one
>> dreamed of
>> > making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas
>> to
>> > cook a meal.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable
>> to
>> >> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>> >>
>> >
>> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
>> > pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
>> > husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> > thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
>> > husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
>> > stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
>> > argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be,
>> not to
>> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas
>> that
>> > would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
>> > left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price
>> of
>> >> coal per delivered MJ.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> > delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> > underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> >> properly.
>> >>
>> >
>> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
>> economic
>> >> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the
>> same
>> >> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
>> husk
>> >> supply.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
>> > will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate
>> > the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>> >
>> >
>> >> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
>> >> includes the whole value chain?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
>> >> options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would
>> >> be the most viable.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but
>> that
>> >> is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
>> > an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus
>> > more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to
>> > cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
>> wisest
>> > way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
>> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>> >
>> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> > that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens
>> > throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Crispin
>> >> From BB9900
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> >> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Stoves mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Stoves mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:44:54 +1200
>> From: "mtrevor" <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <FA1CB8A71E934C1EAEA1B1CEECD3F7F3 at HP29397140882>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Paul
>> If you start making this unit please advise.
>> Thank you
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>> Majuro
>> Marshall islands
>> .
>> n
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Olivier
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
>> large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make
>> TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes
>> is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor
>> that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
>> lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>>
>> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>>
>> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>>
>> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>>
>> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>>
>>
>>
>> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>>
>> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls
>> are used.
>>
>> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
>> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>>
>> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store
>> and load.
>>
>> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
>> of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>>
>> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
>> certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> See comments below.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul O
>>
>> The reason is economics.
>>
>>
>>
>> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are
>> quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived
>> for over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas
>> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of
>> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
>> cook a meal.
>>
>>
>>
>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is
>> viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>>
>>
>>
>> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in
>> getting pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping
>> coffee husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
>> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
>> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
>> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
>> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that
>> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
>> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>>
>>
>>
>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the
>> price of coal per delivered MJ.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>>
>> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>>
>> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> properly.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>>
>> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
>> economic equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however
>> the same energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and
>> raw husk supply.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given
>> area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>>
>>
>>
>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet
>> that includes the whole value chain?
>>
>>
>>
>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison
>> between options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route
>> would be the most viable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>>
>>
>>
>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but
>> that is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not
>> have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not
>> focus more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas
>> to cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
>> wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source
>> of energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>>
>>
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> >From BB9900
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> 06/10/13
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/dc97a6f2/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:57:36 +0200
>> From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
>> To: "list Stove" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>> Message-ID: <2F23AD692BBE4FF8881836667994F938 at PaalPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Ron
>> The horizontal PP TLUD-ND is in some ways different from the vertical
>> TLUDs.
>> The fuel which can be pellets or chopped wood is placed into 1, 2 or 3
>> vertical simple containers called the energy units, ignited and put into
>> the
>> stove. One unit is designed for fast cooking and one or two for simmering.
>> The units has no regulation apart from you just use one unit for smaller
>> cooking like tea or coffee, two units for heavier cooking and 3 units for
>> bigger pots. For simmering you need only one unit. For household cooking
>> you
>> will always at least have 2 blazes working if you need it. For
>> institutional
>> kitchen with huge pots you probably need four units for coming to a boil
>> and
>> then only one unit for simmering. The temperature in the bakery oven will
>> cool down by moister from bread or food while cooking.
>> The fast cooking unit for household cooking are designed for 360 gr
>> pellets
>> and will burn with a smoke and soot-less flame of around 700?C for about
>> 45
>> minutes. The simmering unit is designed for 360 gr pellets and will burn
>> with a flame of 4-500 ?C for about 60-70 minutes. It will also work with 3
>> energy units with the same effect. It?s still under trial.
>> A bigger unit for institutional cooking is designed 1.2 kg pellets that
>> will
>> burn with a smokeless flame of 750 ?C for about 70-80 minutes without any
>> refilling.
>> All units are producing 20 -25% biochar and easy to recover.
>> For more information paaw at online.no
>> Regards Paal W
>>
>> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
>> From: Ron
>> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:52 PM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; paaw at online.no
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>>
>> Paal. Cc list
>>
>> 1. I don't recall seeing the word "horizontal" with Peko Pe before. Can
>> you explain or point me to a site?
>>
>> 2. I agree about the temperatures needed for various cooking tasks.
>> How
>> are you accomplishing this wide range with the Peko Pe?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>>
>> > Stovers
>> > Crispin is right, the best insulation is air, and arranged the right way
>> > it will give some preheating to the intake off secondary air at the same
>> > time as it will prevent destroying the metal. By natural draft you will
>> > have a yellow charcoal with a temperature of about 900?C and by forced
>> air
>> > you will have white charcoal of a temperature of about 1000 ?C, the
>> > temperature blacksmiths need for forcing and welding steel.
>> > But what is convenient temperature for cooking? It is definitely not
>> 1000
>> > ?C. On top of charcoal it can sometimes be too hot, on open fire from
>> wood
>> > sometimes too low. I have found that my horizontal TLUD ND PP stove
>> works
>> > best with a temperature about 700 ?C for cooking, about 450 ?C for
>> > simmering and around 200 ?C for baking bread. And to obtain that, I need
>> > no insulation anywhere in the stove.
>> > Regards Paal W
>> >
>> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- From: ajheggie at gmail.com
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:26 PM
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> > [Default] On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:10:58 -0700,Bob Tingleff
>> > <bob at tingleff.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Belonio's TLUD design calls for an insulated gasifier reactor, with the
>> >> inner cylinder being 20 gauge stainless, though Paul O's version is not
>> >> insulated. And Rocket stoves are insulated. So I'm surprised to see
>> the
>> >> comments below pass without any discussion. I wonder if Belonio's rice
>> >> husk
>> >> gasifier stoves have longevity problems.
>> >
>> > Insulation is necessary to reduce heat loss, so we are not saying don
>> > not use insulation. What we are saying is if the insulation is added
>> > to the "cool" side of a metal surface in the stove then it can cause
>> > the metal work to get to a temperature at which it fails, normally by
>> > oxidation.
>> >
>> > On our high pressure pyrolysis unit we had blocks of ceramic
>> > insulation inside a steel containment but it was necessary to allow
>> > for cooling of the outer skin because stray hot gas could get past the
>> > insulation joints to heat the steel.
>> >
>> > Steel seems to survive the temperature in a TLUD quite well, but this
>> > is only a temperature of around 600C. If the TLUD pyrolysis front
>> > reaches the primary air inlet and the char starts burning in updraught
>> > mode the temperature rapidly reaches over 1100C and steel fails
>> > quickly.
>> >
>> > AJH
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date:
>> 06/08/13
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6396 - Release Date: 06/09/13
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:29:06 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAOreFvZ++V896=-
>> wGq3s8FVqMPvD1TnMdhGWdZ1fWPx8S8_b0g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
>> machines throughout the world.
>>
>> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>>
>> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
>> be prepared.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> > Dear Paul
>> > If you start making this unit please advise.
>> > Thank you
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> > Majuro
>> > Marshall islands
>> > .
>> > n
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> > *What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's
>> > that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens
>> > throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>> > *
>> >
>> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
>> > large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make
>> > TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that
>> changes
>> > is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a
>> reactor
>> > that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
>> > lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>> >
>> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>> >
>> >
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>> >
>> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls
>> are
>> > used.
>> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
>> > matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store
>> and
>> > load.
>> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
>> of
>> > a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
>> certain
>> > level of convenience and ease of use.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> See comments below.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> >> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear Paul O
>> >>>
>> >>> The reason is economics.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
>> >> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived
>> for
>> >> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> >> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned
>> LPG gas
>> >> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> >> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one
>> dreamed of
>> >> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas
>> to
>> >> cook a meal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable
>> to
>> >>> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
>> >> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping
>> coffee
>> >> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> >> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> >> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
>> >> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
>> >> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
>> >> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be,
>> not to
>> >> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas
>> that
>> >> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The
>> biochar
>> >> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price
>> >>> of coal per delivered MJ.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> >> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> >> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> >> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>> >> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> >>> properly.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> >> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
>> economic
>> >>> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the
>> same
>> >>> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw
>> husk
>> >>> supply.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given
>> area
>> >> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate
>> >> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
>> >>> includes the whole value chain?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
>> >>> options. In at least *some *circumstances the gasification route would
>> >>> be the most viable.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but
>> that
>> >>> is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not
>> have
>> >> an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus
>> >> more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to
>> >> cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
>> wisest
>> >> way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
>> >> energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>> >>
>> >> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's
>> >> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens
>> >> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>> Crispin
>> >>> >From BB9900
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> >>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>> >
>> >>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> >> Dalat
>> >> Vietnam
>> >>
>> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> >> http://www.esrla.com/
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/a594fe79/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:25:19 +1200
>> From: "mtrevor" <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <7530AA392F95469A8B8CFD35203788CC at HP29397140882>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally
>> the odd man out.
>>
>> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
>> cake.
>> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
>> you do not approve
>> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>>
>> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
>> the husks are spread ove an area
>> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>>
>> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
>> Stanley's
>> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> processing of biomass waste would be important
>> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>>
>> There are some real challenges involved here.
>>
>> Michael N Trevor.
>>
>> .
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Olivier
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>>
>> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>>
>> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>>
>> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
>> machines throughout the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>>
>> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>>
>> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need
>> to be prepared.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul
>> If you start making this unit please advise.
>> Thank you
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>> Majuro
>> Marshall islands
>> .
>> n
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Olivier
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
>> others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not
>> make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that
>> changes is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a
>> reactor that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small,
>> lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>>
>> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>>
>> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>>
>> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>>
>> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>>
>>
>>
>> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>>
>> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice
>> hulls are used.
>>
>> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
>> particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>>
>> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to
>> store and load.
>>
>> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice
>> hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>>
>> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a
>> certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>>
>> See comments below.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul O
>>
>> The reason is economics.
>>
>>
>>
>> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are
>> quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived
>> for over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas
>> to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of
>> making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to
>> cook a meal.
>>
>>
>>
>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is
>> viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>>
>>
>>
>> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in
>> getting pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping
>> coffee husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee
>> husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power
>> stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might
>> argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
>> burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that
>> would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar
>> left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>>
>>
>>
>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than
>> the price of coal per delivered MJ.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more
>> per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>>
>> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
>> that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>>
>> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
>> prepared properly.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>>
>> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the
>> economic equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however
>> the same energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and
>> raw husk supply.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
>> given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets
>> will stimulate the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this
>> demand.
>>
>>
>>
>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
>> spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
>>
>>
>>
>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison
>> between options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route
>> would be the most viable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>>
>>
>>
>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations,
>> but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK
>> not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not
>> focus more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas
>> to cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the
>> wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source
>> of energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>>
>>
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful
>> TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern
>> kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will
>> follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> >From BB9900
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> 06/10/13
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> 06/10/13
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/3b64e01f/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 05:25:31 -0700
>> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <007701ce669e$c491d2c0$4db57840$@trmiles.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to go
>> all
>> the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the crumbled cake
>> through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out the pellets. Make's
>> a
>> great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini version of Richard's press.
>> There are Chinese versions of course.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> mtrevor
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally
>> the
>> odd man out.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
>> cake.
>>
>>
>> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
>> you
>> do not approve
>>
>> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
>> the husks are spread ove an area
>>
>> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>>
>>
>>
>> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
>> Stanley's
>>
>> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> processing
>> of biomass waste would be important
>>
>> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are some real challenges involved here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael N Trevor.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>>
>> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>>
>> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
>> machines throughout the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>>
>> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>>
>> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
>> be prepared.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul
>>
>> If you start making this unit please advise.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>>
>> Majuro
>>
>> Marshall islands
>>
>> .
>>
>> n
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>>
>>
>> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
>> large
>> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs
>> that
>> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
>> height
>> of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that uses
>> undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
>> mobile
>> and much cheaper.
>>
>> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUl
>> tra/001.pdf<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf>
>> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>>
>> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>>
>> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>>
>> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>>
>>
>>
>> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>>
>> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
>> used.
>>
>> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
>> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>>
>> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
>> load.
>>
>> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
>> of a
>> bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>>
>> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
>> level of convenience and ease of use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> See comments below.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> <crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul O
>>
>> The reason is economics.
>>
>>
>>
>> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
>> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
>> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> upon
>> densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to
>> cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near Dallas,
>> and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making
>> wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to cook a
>> meal.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
>> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>>
>>
>>
>> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
>> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
>> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> thoroughly
>> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
>> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why
>> not
>> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> highest
>> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
>> power
>> stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace bottled
>> gas
>> or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves
>> would then be returned to the soil.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of
>> coal per delivered MJ.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>>
>> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>>
>> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> properly.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>>
>> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
>> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same
>> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw husk
>> supply.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
>> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate
>> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>>
>>
>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
>> includes the whole value chain?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
>> options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route would be
>> the
>> most viable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that
>> is
>> subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
>> an
>> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
>> on
>> producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
>> meal?
>> Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
>> proceed,
>> especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to cook a
>> meal.
>> Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>>
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> >From BB9900
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
>> .org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
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>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:19:39 -0500
>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <51B723EB.6040201 at ilstu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
>> maker. Please provide a link.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
>> >
>> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to
>> > go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the
>> > crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out
>> > the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini
>> > version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions of course.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
>> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
>> > generally the odd man out.
>> >
>> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
>> > cake.
>> >
>> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
>> > though you do not approve
>> >
>> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>> >
>> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
>> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
>> >
>> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>> >
>> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
>> > Richard Stanley's
>> >
>> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> > processing of biomass waste would be important
>> >
>> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>> >
>> > There are some real challenges involved here.
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor.
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>> >
>> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural
>> > binder.
>> >
>> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of
>> > pellet machines throughout the world.
>> >
>> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
>> research.
>> >
>> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>> >
>> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that
>> > need to be prepared.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
>> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul
>> >
>> > If you start making this unit please advise.
>> >
>> > Thank you
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> >
>> > Majuro
>> >
>> > Marshall islands
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > n
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
>> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
>> > units are in place, the rest will follow./
>> >
>> >
>> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
>> > others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why
>> > can we not make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel?
>> > The only thing that changes is the height of the reactor: it's
>> > much less than the height of a reactor that uses undensified
>> > biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
>> > mobile and much cheaper.
>> >
>> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>> >
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>> >
>> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>> >
>> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>> >
>> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5
>> > kgs.
>> >
>> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>> >
>> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
>> > rice hulls are used.
>> >
>> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
>> > particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>> >
>> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance
>> > to store and load.
>> >
>> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose
>> > rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>> >
>> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
>> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
>> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > See comments below.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul O
>> >
>> > The reason is economics.
>> >
>> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics
>> > are quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn
>> > fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West Flanders in
>> > Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon densely populated
>> > rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to cook a
>> > meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no
>> > one dreamed of making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and
>> > using them to make syngas to cook a meal.
>> >
>> >
>> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
>> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>> >
>> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure
>> > in getting pellets to market. How does one explain the
>> > economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from Brazil to
>> > Holland as we see in this link?
>> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is
>> > a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to
>> > transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world to
>> > provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use of
>> > these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
>> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a
>> > syngas that would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil
>> > fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves would then
>> > be returned to the soil.
>> >
>> >
>> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher
>> > than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
>> >
>> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
>> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> >
>> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
>> > that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of
>> coal.
>> >
>> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass
>> pellets.
>> >
>> >
>> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
>> > prepared properly.
>> >
>> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> >
>> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
>> > possible the economic equation will change with the
>> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
>> > production rate will increase the demand for transport and
>> > raw husk supply.
>> >
>> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
>> > given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand
>> > for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
>> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>> >
>> >
>> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
>> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
>> >
>> >
>> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
>> > comparison between options. In at least /some
>> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the most
>> > viable.
>> >
>> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>> >
>> >
>> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
>> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and
>> > the working poor.
>> >
>> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the
>> > UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once
>> > again, should we not focus more on producing syngas from
>> > pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a meal? Burning
>> > pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
>> > proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
>> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station
>> > altogether?
>> >
>> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
>> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
>> > units are in place, the rest will follow.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> > >From BB9900
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
>> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
>> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> >
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
>> > Date: 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> > site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> > site:
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> > 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:50:52 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> To: Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no>
>> Cc: list Stove <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> 1777453040.123352.1370958652029.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Paal cc "Stoves"
>>
>> Thanks for the added information. I have seen a video of the three
>> working together. Your word "horizontal" makes a little more sense.
>>
>> The reason I asked is that, in general, I don't think it possible to make
>> char when the primary air flow is horizontal. The reason is that the
>> primary air will tend to flow over, rather than through, the "slumping"
>> fuel bed.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
>> To: "list Stove" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Cc: "Ron" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:57:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>>
>> Ron
>> The horizontal PP TLUD-ND is in some ways different from the vertical
>> TLUDs.
>> The fuel which can be pellets or chopped wood is placed into 1, 2 or 3
>> vertical simple containers called the energy units, ignited and put into
>> the
>> stove. One unit is designed for fast cooking and one or two for simmering.
>> The units has no regulation apart from you just use one unit for smaller
>> cooking like tea or coffee, two units for heavier cooking and 3 units for
>> bigger pots. For simmering you need only one unit. For household cooking
>> you
>> will always at least have 2 blazes working if you need it. For
>> institutional
>> kitchen with huge pots you probably need four units for coming to a boil
>> and
>> then only one unit for simmering. The temperature in the bakery oven will
>> cool down by moister from bread or food while cooking.
>> The fast cooking unit for household cooking are designed for 360 gr
>> pellets
>> and will burn with a smoke and soot-less flame of around 700?C for about
>> 45
>> minutes. The simmering unit is designed for 360 gr pellets and will burn
>> with a flame of 4-500 ?C for about 60-70 minutes. It will also work with 3
>> energy units with the same effect. It?s still under trial.
>> A bigger unit for institutional cooking is designed 1.2 kg pellets that
>> will
>> burn with a smokeless flame of 750 ?C for about 70-80 minutes without any
>> refilling.
>> All units are producing 20 -25% biochar and easy to recover.
>> For more information paaw at online.no
>> Regards Paal W
>>
>> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
>> From: Ron
>> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:52 PM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; paaw at online.no
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>>
>> Paal. Cc list
>>
>> 1. I don't recall seeing the word "horizontal" with Peko Pe before. Can
>> you explain or point me to a site?
>>
>> 2. I agree about the temperatures needed for various cooking tasks. How
>> are you accomplishing this wide range with the Peko Pe?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>>
>> > Stovers
>> > Crispin is right, the best insulation is air, and arranged the right way
>> > it will give some preheating to the intake off secondary air at the same
>> > time as it will prevent destroying the metal. By natural draft you will
>> > have a yellow charcoal with a temperature of about 900?C and by forced
>> air
>> > you will have white charcoal of a temperature of about 1000 ?C, the
>> > temperature blacksmiths need for forcing and welding steel.
>> > But what is convenient temperature for cooking? It is definitely not
>> 1000
>> > ?C. On top of charcoal it can sometimes be too hot, on open fire from
>> wood
>> > sometimes too low. I have found that my horizontal TLUD ND PP stove
>> works
>> > best with a temperature about 700 ?C for cooking, about 450 ?C for
>> > simmering and around 200 ?C for baking bread. And to obtain that, I need
>> > no insulation anywhere in the stove.
>> > Regards Paal W
>> >
>> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- From: ajheggie at gmail.com
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:26 PM
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> > [Default] On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:10:58 -0700,Bob Tingleff
>> > <bob at tingleff.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Belonio's TLUD design calls for an insulated gasifier reactor, with the
>> >> inner cylinder being 20 gauge stainless, though Paul O's version is not
>> >> insulated. And Rocket stoves are insulated. So I'm surprised to see the
>> >> comments below pass without any discussion. I wonder if Belonio's rice
>> >> husk
>> >> gasifier stoves have longevity problems.
>> >
>> > Insulation is necessary to reduce heat loss, so we are not saying don
>> > not use insulation. What we are saying is if the insulation is added
>> > to the "cool" side of a metal surface in the stove then it can cause
>> > the metal work to get to a temperature at which it fails, normally by
>> > oxidation.
>> >
>> > On our high pressure pyrolysis unit we had blocks of ceramic
>> > insulation inside a steel containment but it was necessary to allow
>> > for cooling of the outer skin because stray hot gas could get past the
>> > insulation joints to heat the steel.
>> >
>> > Steel seems to survive the temperature in a TLUD quite well, but this
>> > is only a temperature of around 600C. If the TLUD pyrolysis front
>> > reaches the primary air inlet and the char starts burning in updraught
>> > mode the temperature rapidly reaches over 1100C and steel fails
>> > quickly.
>> >
>> > AJH
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date:
>> 06/08/13
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> >
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6396 - Release Date: 06/09/13
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:13:45 +0300
>> From: Bjarne Laustsen <bjarne at kiwlau.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <51B73EA9.7090800 at kiwlau.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> One of the problem with pellet making from agricultural residues like
>> wheat husk or rice husk is that there a lot of cheap pellet mills
>> around. However most of these pellet mills are designed for making feed
>> pellets from relative soft materials. These machines can not make fuel
>> pellets from agricultural residues in a rational and economic way.
>> You will have to run the materials through the mills several times for
>> getting some kind of pellets and there will be a lot of maintenance on
>> the pellet mills. We have had bad experiences with that.
>> Any reasonable commercial production of fuel pellets will require pellet
>> mills that are designed for that, and they are somehow more expensive.
>> So if you want to go in to pellet production you need too look careful
>> around and find appropriate equipment. Else you end up with another
>> failed densification system.
>>
>> Bjarne Laustsen
>>
>> On 6/11/2013 3:25 PM, Tom Miles wrote:
>> >
>> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to
>> > go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the
>> > crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out
>> > the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini
>> > version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions of course.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
>> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
>> > generally the odd man out.
>> >
>> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
>> > cake.
>> >
>> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
>> > though you do not approve
>> >
>> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>> >
>> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
>> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
>> >
>> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>> >
>> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
>> > Richard Stanley's
>> >
>> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> > processing of biomass waste would be important
>> >
>> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>> >
>> > There are some real challenges involved here.
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor.
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>> >
>> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural
>> > binder.
>> >
>> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of
>> > pellet machines throughout the world.
>> >
>> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
>> research.
>> >
>> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>> >
>> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that
>> > need to be prepared.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
>> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul
>> >
>> > If you start making this unit please advise.
>> >
>> > Thank you
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> >
>> > Majuro
>> >
>> > Marshall islands
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > n
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
>> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
>> > units are in place, the rest will follow./
>> >
>> >
>> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many
>> > others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why
>> > can we not make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel?
>> > The only thing that changes is the height of the reactor: it's
>> > much less than the height of a reactor that uses undensified
>> > biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
>> > mobile and much cheaper.
>> >
>> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>> >
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>> >
>> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>> >
>> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>> >
>> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5
>> > kgs.
>> >
>> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>> >
>> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
>> > rice hulls are used.
>> >
>> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less
>> > particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>> >
>> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance
>> > to store and load.
>> >
>> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose
>> > rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>> >
>> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
>> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
>> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > See comments below.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul O
>> >
>> > The reason is economics.
>> >
>> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics
>> > are quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn
>> > fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West Flanders in
>> > Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon densely populated
>> > rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to cook a
>> > meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near
>> > Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no
>> > one dreamed of making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and
>> > using them to make syngas to cook a meal.
>> >
>> >
>> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
>> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>> >
>> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure
>> > in getting pellets to market. How does one explain the
>> > economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from Brazil to
>> > Holland as we see in this link?
>> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is
>> > a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to
>> > transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world to
>> > provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use of
>> > these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to
>> > burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a
>> > syngas that would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil
>> > fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves would then
>> > be returned to the soil.
>> >
>> >
>> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher
>> > than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
>> >
>> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
>> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> >
>> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure
>> > that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of
>> coal.
>> >
>> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass
>> pellets.
>> >
>> >
>> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been
>> > prepared properly.
>> >
>> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> >
>> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
>> > possible the economic equation will change with the
>> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
>> > production rate will increase the demand for transport and
>> > raw husk supply.
>> >
>> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a
>> > given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand
>> > for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
>> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>> >
>> >
>> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
>> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
>> >
>> >
>> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
>> > comparison between options. In at least /some
>> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the most
>> > viable.
>> >
>> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>> >
>> >
>> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
>> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and
>> > the working poor.
>> >
>> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the
>> > UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once
>> > again, should we not focus more on producing syngas from
>> > pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a meal? Burning
>> > pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
>> > proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of
>> > energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station
>> > altogether?
>> >
>> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be
>> > situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these
>> > units are in place, the rest will follow.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> > >From BB9900
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
>> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
>> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
>> > our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
>> > our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> > web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> >
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
>> > Date: 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> > site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
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>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> > site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date:
>> > 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
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>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/29081357/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:14:34 -0700
>> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> To: "'Paul Anderson'" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "'Discussion of biomass
>> cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <002c01ce66be$c3f7a810$4be6f830$@trmiles.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>>
>>
>> Look for their meat grinder. If you have a cake or meal like fuel you can
>> make a wet meal and extrude spaghetti-like pellets that are cut off as you
>> make them. Then dry it. You end up with a dried lump like Jeff Davis'
>> fireballs - a low density but nicely shaped fuel pellet. Dog food is made
>> the same way.
>>
>>
>>
>> We use the technique for making pellets for fiber and seed mixes but there
>> is no reason why you can't make fuel pellets that way. We have seen this
>> technique used for cooking stoves in small projects in India and China.
>>
>>
>>
>> The advantage for a stove fuel is that making a wet meal and drying it is
>> a
>> low energy process. When we used to make ag pellets with binders we
>> probably
>> used about 30-50 kWh/ton. In the 1980s pellet mills were re-designed to
>> make
>> dense fuel pellets that depend on heating the fiber to 90 C in the die to
>> enhance adhesion through hydrogen (paper) bonding and lignin flow.
>> Specific
>> power consumption increased to 75-100 kWh/ton in the pellet mill because
>> yiou are converting electrical energy to heat. Particles need to be dry
>> (<8%
>> MC) and fine (<6 mm) to make a good pellet. Christa has a small, capacity,
>> mill that makes fuel pellets in this way. There are also the Chinese mills
>> with vertical dies that can be used.
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember Jeff Davis' fireballs? He put wet fuel into a cement mixer,
>> rolled
>> it into balls and dried it out. He showed that it made great fuel for a
>> TLUD gasifier. Why not a stove?
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:20 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Cc: Tom Miles
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
>> maker. Please provide a link.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
>>
>> The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have to go
>> all
>> the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the crumbled cake
>> through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out the pellets. Make's
>> a
>> great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's. It's a mini version of Richard's press.
>> There are Chinese versions of course.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> mtrevor
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally
>> the
>> odd man out.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the
>> cake.
>>
>>
>> It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though
>> you
>> do not approve
>>
>> the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside
>> the husks are spread ove an area
>>
>> maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>>
>>
>>
>> there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard
>> Stanley's
>>
>> lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> processing
>> of biomass waste would be important
>>
>> but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are some real challenges involved here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael N Trevor.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>>
>> Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>>
>> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.
>>
>> I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet
>> machines throughout the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.
>>
>> When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.
>> Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.
>>
>> There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to
>> be prepared.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul
>>
>> If you start making this unit please advise.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>>
>> Majuro
>>
>> Marshall islands
>>
>> .
>>
>> n
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>>
>>
>> In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>>
>>
>> It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others
>> large
>> retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs
>> that
>> make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the
>> height
>> of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that uses
>> undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight,
>> mobile
>> and much cheaper.
>>
>> Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUl
>> tra/001.pdf<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf>
>> The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>>
>> This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>>
>> This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>>
>> The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.
>>
>>
>>
>> We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>>
>> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are
>> used.
>>
>> Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate
>> matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.
>>
>> Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and
>> load.
>>
>> In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls
>> of a
>> bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>>
>> If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain
>> level of convenience and ease of use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> See comments below.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> <crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul O
>>
>> The reason is economics.
>>
>>
>>
>> In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite
>> good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for
>> over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached
>> upon
>> densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to
>> cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near Dallas,
>> and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making
>> wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to cook a
>> meal.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to
>> transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.
>>
>>
>>
>> China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting
>> pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee
>> husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This is a
>> thoroughly
>> bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets
>> half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why
>> not
>> make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> highest
>> and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge
>> power
>> stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace bottled
>> gas
>> or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves
>> would then be returned to the soil.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of
>> coal per delivered MJ.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per
>> delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>>
>> In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that
>> underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.
>>
>> This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared
>> properly.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>>
>> Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic
>> equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same
>> energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw husk
>> supply.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area
>> will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will
>> stimulate
>> the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>>
>>
>> You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that
>> includes the whole value chain?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between
>> options. In at least some circumstances the gasification route would be
>> the
>> most viable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that
>> is
>> subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have
>> an
>> abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more
>> on
>> producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
>> meal?
>> Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to
>> proceed,
>> especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to cook a
>> meal.
>> Why not bypass the power station altogether?
>>
>> What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's
>> that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens
>> throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> >From BB9900
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>> _____
>>
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>> _____
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>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>> _____
>>
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>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130611/221a10dc/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 14
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:39:45 -0400
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> Message-ID: <070701ce66c2$4c086430$e4192c90$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Bjarne
>>
>>
>>
>> >Any reasonable commercial production of fuel pellets will require pellet
>> mills that are designed for that, and they are somehow more expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Chinese are looking very hard into this and have an aggressive
>> pelleting
>> programme that gives tons output per year as the metric. They have major
>> problems with equipment at any price. Teams are working on how to solve
>> the
>> materials and wear issues. This was reported in detail at the conference
>> in
>> October last year at the China Agricultural University, Prof Dong in
>> charge.
>>
>>
>>
>> The economic are strongly affected by transport issues of the product, and
>> the cost of replacing wearing parts, even when made from tungsten
>> materials.
>> Agricultural wastes are very dirty and abrasive. If you want to make char,
>> make it from the uncompressed materials just as AD Karve suggests. If you
>> want to make fuel, try to get the best materials and pellet or briquette
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to generate power from the char making process, no problem
>> though the infrastructure required would be a problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Incidentally the processing centres that take in the agri-wastes do not
>> get
>> involved in the transport of the materials from the farmer to the centre.
>> That is up to the farmer who is paid for the material, delivered.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 15
>> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:44:47 -0500
>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> To: Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> Cc: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Meat grinder fuels for TLUDs was Re: wheat husk
>> pellets
>> Message-ID: <51B7620F.6050804 at ilstu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Here is a link for largest of grinders from Cabelas. US$680
>>
>> >
>> http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas-Commercial-Grade-1-12-hp-Electric-Grinder/1646476.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26No%3D0%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dmeat%2Bgrinder%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3D%26WTz_stype%3DSP%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26recordsPerPage%3D20%26search%3Dmeat%2Bgrinder%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=meat+grinder&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products
>>
>> We would LOVE to have some fuel samples that have been made with things
>> like meat grinders. As Paal Wendelbo correctly says, "Start with the
>> fuels!!" With an assured fuel supply at reasonable cost and quality,
>> getting a TLUD to work well with it is relatively straight forward.
>>
>> I cannot take on this fuels research, but I will assist others. I hope
>> that others are already doing it or are willing to get involved.
>> Looking forward to comments.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 6/11/2013 11:14 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
>> >
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > Look for their meat grinder. If you have a cake or meal like fuel you
>> > can make a wet meal and extrude spaghetti-like pellets that are cut
>> > off as you make them. Then dry it. You end up with a dried lump like
>> > Jeff Davis' fireballs -- a low density but nicely shaped fuel pellet.
>> > Dog food is made the same way.
>> >
>> > We use the technique for making pellets for fiber and seed mixes but
>> > there is no reason why you can't make fuel pellets that way. We have
>> > seen this technique used for cooking stoves in small projects in India
>> > and China.
>> >
>> > The advantage for a stove fuel is that making a wet meal and drying it
>> > is a low energy process. When we used to make ag pellets with binders
>> > we probably used about 30-50 kWh/ton. In the 1980s pellet mills were
>> > re-designed to make dense fuel pellets that depend on heating the
>> > fiber to 90 C in the die to enhance adhesion through hydrogen (paper)
>> > bonding and lignin flow. Specific power consumption increased to
>> > 75-100 kWh/ton in the pellet mill because yiou are converting
>> > electrical energy to heat. Particles need to be dry (<8% MC) and fine
>> > (<6 mm) to make a good pellet. Christa has a small, capacity, mill
>> > that makes fuel pellets in this way. There are also the Chinese mills
>> > with vertical dies that can be used.
>> >
>> > Remember Jeff Davis' fireballs? He put wet fuel into a cement mixer,
>> > rolled it into balls and dried it out. He showed that it made great
>> > fuel for a TLUD gasifier. Why not a stove?
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:20 AM
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Cc:* Tom Miles
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette
>> > maker. Please provide a link.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype:
>> paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>> >
>> > On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:
>> >
>> > The world is full of failed densification systems. You don't have
>> > to go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put
>> > the crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and
>> > dry out the pellets. Make's a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela's.
>> > It's a mini version of Richard's press. There are Chinese versions
>> > of course.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
>> > Behalf Of *mtrevor
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am
>> > generally the odd man out.
>> >
>> > The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for
>> > the cake.
>> >
>> > It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even
>> > though you do not approve
>> >
>> > the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove.
>> >
>> > There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks.
>> > Beside the husks are spread ove an area
>> >
>> > maybe 1/3 of the entire United States
>> >
>> > there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of
>> > Richard Stanley's
>> >
>> > lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective
>> > processing of biomass waste would be important
>> >
>> > but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly
>> > impossible.
>> >
>> > There are some real challenges involved here.
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor.
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?
>> >
>> > Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,
>> >
>> > and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a
>> > natural binder.
>> >
>> > I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance
>> > of pellet machines throughout the world.
>> >
>> > Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar
>> > research.
>> >
>> > When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire
>> > value.
>> > Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.
>> >
>> > Once again, fuel preparation is critical.
>> > Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal
>> preparation.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust,
>> > that need to be prepared.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net
>> > <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul
>> >
>> > If you start making this unit please advise.
>> >
>> > Thank you
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> >
>> > Majuro
>> >
>> > Marshall islands
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > n
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > *From:*Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > *To:*Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > *Sent:*Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM
>> >
>> > *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > In my previous email I concluded by saying:
>> > /What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units
>> > could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world.
>> > Once these units are in place, the rest will follow./
>> >
>> >
>> > It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and
>> > many others large retailers in the USA all carry wood
>> > pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that make use of these
>> > pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the height
>> > of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a
>> > reactor that uses undensified biomass. This means that the
>> > TLUD is small, lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.
>> >
>> > Here is an example of what I am talking about:
>> >
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf
>> > The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.
>> >
>> > This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.
>> >
>> > This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.
>> >
>> > The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than
>> > 1.5 kgs.
>> >
>> > We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,
>> >
>> > and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose
>> > rice hulls are used.
>> >
>> > Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much
>> > less particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice
>> > hulls.
>> >
>> > Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real
>> > nuisance to store and load.
>> >
>> > In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in
>> > loose rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.
>> >
>> > If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must
>> > reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier
>> > <paul.olivier at esrla.com <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > See comments below.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> > <crispinpigott at gmail.com <mailto:crispinpigott at gmail.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Paul O
>> >
>> > The reason is economics.
>> >
>> > In may cases transport distances are short, and the
>> > economics are quite good, and yet we complacently continue
>> > to burn fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West
>> > Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon
>> > densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily
>> > burned LPG gas to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie,
>> > Texas, a small town near Dallas, and once again, wheat
>> > fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making wheat
>> > husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas
>> > to cook a meal.
>> >
>> >
>> > China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius
>> > that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150
>> km.
>> >
>> > China appears to be struggling with a lack of
>> > infrastructure in getting pellets to market. How does one
>> > explain the economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from
>> > Brazil to Holland as we see in this link?
>> > http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/ This
>> > is a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense
>> > to transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world
>> > to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use
>> > of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the
>> > highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not
>> > to burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from
>> > them a syngas that would replace bottled gas or other
>> > forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these
>> > stoves would then be returned to the soil.
>> >
>> >
>> > $76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far
>> > higher than the price of coal per delivered MJ.
>> >
>> > Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs
>> > more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets.
>> >
>> > In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar
>> > infrastructure that underlies the mining, preparation and
>> > transportation of coal.
>> >
>> > This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass
>> > pellets.
>> >
>> >
>> > Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have
>> > been prepared properly.
>> >
>> > The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.
>> >
>> > Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite
>> > possible the economic equation will change with the
>> > introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy
>> > production rate will increase the demand for transport
>> > and raw husk supply.
>> >
>> > Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers
>> > in a given area will create a demand for pellets, and the
>> > demand for pellets will stimulate the construction of the
>> > infrastructure needed to meet this demand.
>> >
>> >
>> > You know all this. How about giving us an equation or
>> > spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?
>> >
>> >
>> > Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a
>> > comparison between options. In at least /some
>> > /circumstances the gasification route would be the
>> > most viable.
>> >
>> > Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say
>> > "many".
>> >
>> >
>> > The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power
>> > stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies
>> > and the working poor.
>> >
>> > Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does
>> > the UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And
>> > once again, should we not focus more on producing syngas
>> > from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a
>> > meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not
>> > the wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity
>> > is used as a source of energy to cook a meal. Why not
>> > bypass the power station altogether?
>> >
>> > What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small,
>> > beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units
>> > could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world.
>> > Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> > >From BB9900
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> > <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>>
>> > Sender: "Stoves"
>> > <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking
>> > stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
>> > see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> > see our web site:
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
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>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> >
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
>> > Date: 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
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>> > web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> > web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release
>> > Date: 06/10/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Stoves mailing list
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>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
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>> site:
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 34, Issue 18
>> **************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Art Donnelly
> President SeaChar.Org
> US Director, The Farm Stove Project
> Proyecto Estufa Finca
>
> <http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
> "SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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