[Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
Paul Olivier
paul.olivier at esrla.com
Sun Jun 30 21:43:07 CDT 2013
See:
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1175
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=103
Thanks.
Paul Olivier
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
> About 350 C
>
> Crispin
> From BB9900
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex English <english at kingston.net>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:35:14
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
>
>
> What do you think the maximum service temperature of SS 304 is in a
> stove environment?
>
> Alex
>
> On 30/06/2013 9:22 PM, M. Nurhuda wrote:
> > Paul and all,
> >
> > I agree with you. The char combustion is very dangerous to the plat
> > material of burning chamber. My experiences, the combustion chamber will
> > be damaged within 2-3 months if it is long exposed in a strong char
> > combustion mode, even the plat material is SS 304.
> >
> > Moreover, to be wise is a better way to conserve nature. The soil has
> > right to get biochar in term of combustion residue to maintain the soil
> > fertility. This, not only good for soil, but also for CO2 reduction.
> >
> > Regards
> > M. Nurhuda
> >
> >
> >
> >> Varun,
> >>
> >> You say that with the Oorja, 70% of the total energy is delivered in
> >> flaming mode and 30% in char mode. But would this not apply to all
> TLUDs?
> >> In my case, if I leave the fan on after the flaming mode is finished, a
> >> char mode begins. As the char is combusted, the temperature within the
> >> unit
> >> climbs incredibly (dangerously) high.
> >>
> >> This leads me to ask: why consume the char? Why not stop the process
> when
> >> the flaming mode comes to an end? There is an inefficiency that kicks in
> >> when char is consumed, since this takes place at a considerable distance
> >> from the pot.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> Paul Olivier
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Varun ShivaKumar
> >> <varun at cgpl.iisc.ernet.in>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Paul,
> >>>
> >>> Oorja is exactly TLUD. 70% of the total energy is delivered in flaming
> >>> mode which involves migratory pyrolysis front (or flame front as
> >>> discussed
> >>> in chapter 5). Only 30% energy in the left over char is delivered in
> the
> >>> char mode in the manner described by you. You are correct in saying
> that
> >>> it
> >>> is not TLUD in this char mode (in fact it is co-current in char mode as
> >>> opposed to counter-current in flaming mode) . But in flaming mode it is
> >>> exactly TLUD. I kindly request you to take this into account when you
> >>> discuss this at Aprovecho.
> >>>
> >>> Varun
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From:* Stoves [stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] on behalf of
> >>> rongretlarson at comcast.net [rongretlarson at comcast.net]
> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:17 AM
> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Paal Wendelbo
> >>>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Paal and list.
> >>>
> >>> The thesis was inspired by the Oorja, and helped to improve it,
> >>> but
> >>> the thesis itself is much more general. The word "Oorja" rarely
> >>> appears.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know if there have been any Oorja test results
> reported
> >>> by
> >>> any of the major stove testing labs (Aprovecho, EPA, etc)?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From: *"Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> >>> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Sent: *Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:18:21 PM
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Ron and Paul O
> >>>
> >>> Into the advertising leaflet of the Oorja stove is written “at end of
> >>> flame very little aches is left†and I have tested the stove and can
> >>> confirm it is right. I could see sparks up in the air above stove. The
> >>> grid
> >>> of cast iron 10 mm thick was white yellow about 900-1000ËšC and quite
> >>> dangerous to handle to take out some few char left.
> >>>
> >>> With regards Paal W
> >>>
> >>> *From:* rongretlarson at comcast.net
> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:51 PM
> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking
> >>> stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Paul etal:
> >>>
> >>> I should have added there are some good discussions of the same
> >>> stove/cylinder (glass) with numerous types of fuels. And he shows they
> >>> obey the same laws - can predict performance (front velocity, power
> >>> level
> >>> (?) - given the superficial velocty.)
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From: *rongretlarson at comcast.net
> >>> *To: *"Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> *Cc: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:44:07 PM
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Paul:
> >>>
> >>> I know very little on the Oorja stove. But the thesis is mostly
> >>> (entirely?) on a packed bed, top lit. It is on the migratory pyrolytic
> >>> front (MPF) - so should be applicable to all TLUDs. I would like to
> >>> hear
> >>> from any/all on whether I am getting the right reading about NOT
> >>> consuming
> >>> the char.
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From: *"Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Cc: *rongretlarson at comcast.net
> >>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:12:57 PM
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Ron,
> >>>
> >>> I am in Uganda now and have not had a chance to see the thesis. Thank
> >>> you for the comments.
> >>>
> >>> About #3, the Oorja stove is rather heavy for turning over, has a
> >>> smallish
> >>> fuel chamber meaning not much char and only short TLUD burns, and has a
> >>> loose cast iron cup in the bottom that would fall out if the unit is
> >>> tipped
> >>> over to remove the char. It is designed to NOT be tipped over for
> >>> saving
> >>> char.
> >>>
> >>> It is intentionally designed to have continuous burning with the fire
> in
> >>> the bottom consuming char. And when doing that, the Oorja is NOT
> >>> operating in the TLUD mode which is specifically characterized by the
> >>> migratory pyrolytic front (MPF), but the Oorja is not with MPF after
> the
> >>> rather small initial load of fuel has been pyrolyzed.
> >>>
> >>> Therefore, the Oorja (and most others with forced air FA) essentially
> is
> >>> NOT a TLUD because it is operated without the MPF except for the
> initial
> >>> batch of fuel.
> >>>
> >>> I will be addressing this topic more at the Stove Camp at Aprovecho on
> >>> 22
> >>> - 26 July.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>> On 6/27/2013 2:43 PM, rongretlarson at comcast.net wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Julien and list
> >>>
> >>> 1. Thanks very much for providing this cite. I have read most and
> >>> find
> >>> it to be a well done thesis. I wish we had more like it.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The concepts of char and TLUDs are in here thoroughly. But nothing
> >>> on
> >>> the idea of a stove designed to make char. All char is presumed and
> >>> desired to be consumed.
> >>>
> >>> 3. My conclusion (would like to hear more) is that a good case is
> made
> >>> (not intentionally) for NOT consuming the produced char in a TLUD
> (this
> >>> one fan-powered and widely sold in India as the "Oorja" (started by
> >>> BP)).
> >>> Very little gain in overall efficiency as the char is consumed.
> >>>
> >>> 4. A major advance was his study of the importance of ash in this
> >>> "char"
> >>> period as a poor radiator - thereby responsible for (undesired) high
> >>> char
> >>> temperatures.
> >>>
> >>> 5. Most everything shown as a function of superficial velocity (Vs) -
> >>> with 16-17 cm/sec shown as key dividing point in stove behavior..
> Above
> >>> which velocity one swtches from char production to char consumption.
> I
> >>> have not seen this before.
> >>>
> >>> For his highly automated fan system, measuring Vs was apparently
> not
> >>> so difficult. Anyone able to give a way to get an easy estimate of Vs,
> >>> when there is only natural draft?
> >>>
> >>> 6. Quite a bit on the importance of low emissions of CO.
> >>>
> >>> 7. Good information on both the experimental and computational side
> of
> >>> top-lit (packed bed) stoves. Not much here for rocket stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Have I got #3 right?
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> >> Dalat
> >> Vietnam
> >>
> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
> >> http://www.esrla.com/
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>
--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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