[Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves

Tue May 28 22:07:15 CDT 2013

Hi all,
I wish I was at the point where I could share published data with you on
stove use by participants in the Estufa Finca-Talamanca project. We started
distribution in March of 2012 and added and our last group in January 2013
I hope to have that together by Stove Camp. However count me among the
"believers".
The ND TLUD Estufa Finca has been and continues to be a hit in the
Talamanca de Costa Rica. We have passed the 0ne year mark for the 1st group
of cooks to get their new biochar producing stoves. We are getting back two
"complaints": lack of a longevity and a better multiple pot cook-top
option. However our adoption rate is well-over 50% and although the 110
families in who participated in the year long EF program received their
stoves for the US equivalent of $10. We have been and still are selling the
same stoves to others in this same area for approx. $40 each. We have sold
over 60 units at this retail price.
Like most projects out there, we are chronically under funded so that
limited our ability to bring more communities into the Biochar "buy-back"
program for stove users. Working with a 32 house hold sub-set we collected
over 3 tons of biochar. Most of that is now back in the ground.
Approximately 2/3 of that has gone into research plots, demonstration
gardens, etc., but we have sold over a ton.
As some of you know the E.F. does not require a prepared fuel. It is
essentially a "stick-wood" stove. However I believe that in order to
achieve real success and put this effort on commercially sustainable legs
we need a stove like Paul Olivers.
Propane is a prepared fuel. People are buying it. If we can build the
distribution system there is a place for pellets. These stoves will allow
us to gain entry into the much larger urban and peri-urban markets where
people are sliding back down the "fuel ladder" due to rising energy costs.
I want to add my voice to what Dr. TLUD, Paul Oliver, Otto , et al. are
saying: there is a big, eager market for the very clean burning stoves we
have and the biochar those stoves produce.
If you do not believe me, I will put you in touch with the people using our
stoves and the biochar they make. Can this scale up? Yes, if those of us in
the pyrolysis stove community start working together on manufacturing
strategies in order to give people a range of affordable, well designed,
durable appliances.

See you at Stove Camp!
Art Donnelly

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:00 PM,
<stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Kevin)
>    2. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Ron)
>    3. Re: Bottom of the line smoke detector (Sarbagya R. Tuladhar)
>    4. Differently shaped combustion chambers (Sarbagya R. Tuladhar)
>    5. Re: Bottom of the line smoke detector (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>    6. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Kevin)
>    7. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Dean Still)
>    8. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Rogerio carneiro de miranda)
>    9. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Richard Stanley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 23:08:51 -0300
> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID: <FA24E1FEA63D441D879C63E17A1F6CF0 at usera594fda0bf>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Ron
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>   To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>   Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>
>   Dean:
>
>        I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
> "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
> words "carbon negative"  Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
> negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>
>   # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>
>   #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> are not "carbon negative"?
>
>   Thanks.
>
>   Kevin
>
>
>   Paul O's seems to be in this nice class.   This is not to mention the
> global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
> with biochar
>
>       I repeat that I know you know this.  Some on this list don't.
>
>       Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
>
>     Ron
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>   To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>   Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>   Hi All,
>
>
>   Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2
> to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
> the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
>
>
>   Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>
>
>   Best,
>
>
>   Dean
>
>
>   On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> wrote:
>
>     Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>
>     Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>
>
>     Paul Olivier
>
>
>
>
>     On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>
>       I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio,
> Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
> poised to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,  are
> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition
> they are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
> manufature exist.
>       Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove
> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00
> $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No
> matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little
> appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a major hurdle.
>
>       Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>
>       Michael N Trevor
>       Marshall Islands
>
>       .
>
>         From: Paul Anderson
>         To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         Cc: Otto Formo
>         Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>         Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re:
> fan expertise?
>
>
>         Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
> message.
>
>         I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on all
> four of them.
>
>         1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>
>         We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when
> available and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove
> users in any significant segment of the population.   We need some
> documentation that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households
> that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of
> the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked
> again and again each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
>
>         Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger studies
> will follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about sales.
> This is about sustained usage.
>
>         We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
> stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing such
> studies?
>
>         2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection about
> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data from the
> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
> coming 3 months.
>
>         3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD
> stoves with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for
> numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated
> in a factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not doubt
> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
> not in hand.
>
>         4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are
> still functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on this
> and I hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where
> TLUD stoves are a focal issue.
>
>         Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as
> the ones with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available,
> that will be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be
> considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the
> breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>
>         Paul
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.comOn 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>
>           Ron
>
>           I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try
> to convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop
> more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>
>           What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>           Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production,
> handeling etc.
>
>           Paul A and Ron,
>           If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a
> group of "belivers" and start from there.
>
>           Thanks.
>
>           Otto
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Stoves mailing list
>
>         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>         for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>         http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>         No virus found in this message.
>         Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>         Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
> 05/25/13
>
>
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       Stoves mailing list
>
>       to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
>       to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>       for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>       http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Paul A. Olivier PhD
>     26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>     Dalat
>     Vietnam
>
>     Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>     Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>     Skype address: Xpolivier
>     http://www.esrla.com/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Stoves mailing list
>
>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Stoves mailing list
>
>   to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>   stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>   to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>   for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>   http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Stoves mailing list
>
>   to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>   stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>   to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>   for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>   http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 21:37:10 -0600
> From: Ron <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID: <8EA00628-BDCE-4F62-85FD-FA0862BD411B at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Kevin
>
>    I presume this question is because of my statement below about " ...the
> need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>
>    My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs  has been on this
> list at least a dozen times - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.  Look
> up what is said about the Philips stove.
>
>    I'll go doing  a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
> for a real cite?
>
> Ron
>
> On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>
> > Dear Ron
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> > Dean:
> >
> >      I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
> "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
> words "carbon negative"  Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
> negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
> >
> > # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
> >
> > #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> are not "carbon negative"?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > Paul O's seems to be in this nice class.   This is not to mention the
> global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
> with biochar
> >
> >     I repeat that I know you know this.  Some on this list don't.
> >
> >     Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
> >
> >   Ron
> >
> > From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2
> to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
> the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
> >
> > Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> wrote:
> > Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget,
> to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich
> people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our
> big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of
> the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made
> of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about
> three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3
> kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to
> match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost
> more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that
> would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable
> biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos,
> Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
> >
> > Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
> >
> > Paul Olivier
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
> > I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised
> to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,  are physically
> good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they are
> located in places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature exist.
> > Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves are
> relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could
> be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00 $300 or
> $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No matter
> what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal
> here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a major hurdle.
> >
> > Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
> >
> > Michael N Trevor
> > Marshall Islands
> >
> > .
> >
> > From: Paul Anderson
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Cc: Otto Formo
> > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
> > Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
> expertise?
> >
> > Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
> message.
> >
> > I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on all
> four of them.
> >
> > 1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
> >
> > We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any
> significant segment of the population.   We need some documentation that xx
> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried
> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their
> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
> each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
> >
> > Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger studies will
> follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about sales.   This
> is about sustained usage.
> >
> > We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
> stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing such
> studies?
> >
> > 2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection about
> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data from the
> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
> coming 3 months.
> >
> > 3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
> with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for numbers of
> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated in a
> factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not doubt
> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
> not in hand.
> >
> > 4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
> functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on this and I
> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
> stoves are a focal issue.
> >
> > Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the ones
> with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available, that will
> be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be considered
> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the breakthrough for
> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
> > On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
> > Ron
> >
> > I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
> convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop
> more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
> >
> > What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
> > Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
> >
> > Paul A and Ron,
> > If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
> "belivers" and start from there.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Otto
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date: 05/25/13
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > Dalat
> > Vietnam
> >
> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > http://www.esrla.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
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> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 09:40:49 +0530
> From: "Sarbagya R. Tuladhar" <sarbagya007 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Bottom of the line smoke detector
> Message-ID: <29BAC859-0FC7-43FF-8B5F-2F0956F5FAD5 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Crispin,
>
> Would this Bacharach Smoke Detector work for measuring the PM emissions
> from a stove similar to using a PM gravimetric system ? Not possible to
> obtain real time data from it, I assume.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sarbagya
>
> On 27/05/2013, at 10:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>
> > Dear Friends
> >
> > If you want to have a very simple PM detector the Bacharach Smoke
> Detector is one that may suit your budget.
> >
> > It uses a vacuum cylinder with hand pump and you compare the darkness of
> the spots on a filter paper with a chart.  It turns out the blackness of
> the spot is a pretty good indicator of the clack carbon content. This is
> being studied by Berkeley, actually, using photos of filters.
> >
> > http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf
> >
> > That is the place. Look down on the left side.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:06:27 +0530
> From: "Sarbagya R. Tuladhar" <sarbagya007 at gmail.com>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Stoves] Differently shaped combustion chambers
> Message-ID: <91057EB0-677D-453C-91CD-C2DA8B12E65B at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello Stovers,
>
> Can anyone direct me to some document relating to testing done on
> different shaped combustion chambers ? How does it effect the performance ?
> Conical, hexagonal etc
>
> Thanks
>
> Sarbagya Tuladhar
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:33:18 +0800
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Bottom of the line smoke detector
> Message-ID: <078301ce5b97$2bf3cb70$83db6250$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Sarbagya
>
>
>
> The device is only accurate (OK, reasonably good guess) for indoor air
> because unless you know the dilution of the gas sample, you don't really
> know how much PM was generated.
>
>
>
> If you wanted to measure the PM from a stove by pulling a sample (10 pumps
> I
> think on the handle) from the gap between a stove body and pot you can get
> some idea of the difference between two similar stoves, however as you are
> not measuring the excess air so you don't know how diluted it is.
>
>
>
> What it is really good for is giving an indication of indoor air quality at
> a very low cost. I have used them in the past to do that. It was really
> clear, for example, that the PM in indoor air in kitchens in the eastern
> lowveld Swaziland varied a great deal, in two identifiable clusters. There
> were low PM ones and really high PM ones. Looking at the data it became
> clear that all the high PM kitchens were in homesteads occupied by
> Mozambiquean immigrants who build a very different structures from ethnic
> Swazis.
>
>
>
> As always, when you have nothing, half a loaf is better than no bread.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Crispin,
>
>
>
> Would this Bacharach Smoke Detector work for measuring the PM emissions
> from
> a stove similar to using a PM gravimetric system ? Not possible to obtain
> real time data from it, I assume.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Sarbagya
>
>
>
> On 27/05/2013, at 10:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Friends
>
>
>
> If you want to have a very simple PM detector the Bacharach Smoke Detector
> is one that may suit your budget.
>
>
>
> It uses a vacuum cylinder with hand pump and you compare the darkness of
> the
> spots on a filter paper with a chart.  It turns out the blackness of the
> spot is a pretty good indicator of the clack carbon content. This is being
> studied by Berkeley, actually, using photos of filters.
>
>
>
>  <http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf>
> http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf
>
>
>
> That is the place. Look down on the left side.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>  <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylist
> s.org>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>  <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:32:47 -0300
> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID: <FF15BF1E18C84453951EF103B350BD94 at usera594fda0bf>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Ron
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ron
>   To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>   Kevin
>
>
>      I presume this question is because of my statement below about "
> ...the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>
>   # There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for
> mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to attempt to
> change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are
> clear:
>   "# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>   #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> are not "carbon negative"?"
>   Please answer them.
>
>
>      My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs  has been on this
> list at least a dozen times
>
>   # That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is
> true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full
> combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove test
> data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can
> present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim.
>
>    - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
>
>   # I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very
> helpful.
>
>    Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
>   # You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you
> to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then
> your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove
> have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to see
> the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves List,
> to support your claim.
>
>
>
>
>      I'll go doing  a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
> for a real cite?
>
>   # Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It
> would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion here.
>
>   # Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking
> for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove
> compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" , ie,
>   "a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"
>
>   Kevin
>
>
>   Ron
>
>   On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>
>
>     Dear Ron
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>       To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>       Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>       Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>
>       Dean:
>
>            I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove
> development "business" because we want messages like yours below to also
> include the words "carbon negative"  Surprisingly, those stoves that can be
> carbon negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>
>       # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>
>       #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that
> such "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves
> which are not "carbon negative"?
>
>       Thanks.
>
>       Kevin
>
>
>       Paul O's seems to be in this nice class.   This is not to mention
> the global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
> with biochar
>
>           I repeat that I know you know this.  Some on this list don't.
>
>           Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
>
>         Ron
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>       From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>       To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>       Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>       Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>       Hi All,
>
>
>       Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds
> CO2 to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon
> neutral, the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health,
> etc.
>
>
>       Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>
>
>       Best,
>
>
>       Dean
>
>
>       On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <
> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>
>         Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>
>         Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we
> expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
> except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>
>
>         Paul Olivier
>
>
>
>
>         On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> wrote:
>
>           I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr
> Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could
> easily be poised to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,
>  are physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
> addition they are located in places where industrial and mechanical means
> of manufature exist.
>           Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these
> stoves are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
> stove could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered
> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a
> major hurdle.
>
>           Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>
>           Michael N Trevor
>           Marshall Islands
>
>           .
>
>             From: Paul Anderson
>             To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>             Cc: Otto Formo
>             Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>             Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves
> Re: fan expertise?
>
>
>             Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to
> Otto's message.
>
>             I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on all
> four of them.
>
>             1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves
> (at reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>
>             We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when
> available and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove
> users in any significant segment of the population.   We need some
> documentation that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households
> that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of
> the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked
> again and again each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
>
>             Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger
> studies will follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about
> sales.   This is about sustained usage.
>
>             We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad
> TLUD stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing
> such studies?
>
>             2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection
> about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data from the
> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
> coming 3 months.
>
>             3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD
> stoves with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for
> numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated
> in a factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not doubt
> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
> not in hand.
>
>             4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that
> are still functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on
> this and I hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho
> where TLUD stoves are a focal issue.
>
>             Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such
> as the ones with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available,
> that will be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be
> considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the
> breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>
>             Paul
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.comOn 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>
>               Ron
>
>               I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to
> try to convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will
> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>
>               What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>               Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production,
> handeling etc.
>
>               Paul A and Ron,
>               If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create
> a group of "belivers" and start from there.
>
>               Thanks.
>
>               Otto
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Stoves mailing list
>
>             to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>             stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>             to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>             for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our
> web site:
>             http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>             No virus found in this message.
>             Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>             Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release
> Date: 05/25/13
>
>
>
>
>           _______________________________________________
>           Stoves mailing list
>
>           to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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>
>           for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our
> web site:
>           http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         Paul A. Olivier PhD
>         26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>         Dalat
>         Vietnam
>
>         Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>         Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>         Skype address: Xpolivier
>         http://www.esrla.com/
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Stoves mailing list
>
>         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>         stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>         for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>         http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       Stoves mailing list
>
>       to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>       stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>       to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>       for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>       http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       Stoves mailing list
>
>       to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>       stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>       to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>       for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>       http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Stoves mailing list
>
>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
>     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Stoves mailing list
>
>   to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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>
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>   http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 08:26:29 -0700
> From: Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID:
>         <CA+tShZvUi3n_Zgq9mi7W5oiAAPOWJru3=
> 419OC1dD3GibHoe-w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
> [image: Inline image 2]
> O[image: Inline image 3]n Tue, M[image: Inline image 4]ay [image: Inline
> image 5]28, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>
> > **
> > Dear Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Ron <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >    I presume this question is because of my statement below about "
> ...the
> > need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
> >
> > *# There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for
> > mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to attempt
> to
> > change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are
> > clear:*
> >  *"# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
> > *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> > "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> > are not "carbon negative"?"*
> > *Please answer them.*
> >
> >    My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs  has been on this
> > list at least a dozen times
> >
> > *# That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is
> > true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full
> > combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove test
> > data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can
> > present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim. *
> > **
> >  - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
> >
> > *# I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very
> > helpful.*
> >
> >  Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
> >
> > *# You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you
> > to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then
> > your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove
> > have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to
> see
> > the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves
> List,
> > to support your claim.*
> >
> >
> >    I'll go doing  a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
> > for a real cite?
> >
> > *# Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It
> > would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion
> here.
> > *
> > **
> > *# Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking
> > for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove
> > compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" ,
> ie,
> > *
> > *"a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"*
> > **
> > *Kevin*
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
> >
> >   Dear Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> > Dean:
> >
> >      I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
> > "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
> > words "carbon negative"  Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
> > negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
> >
> > *# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
> >
> > *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> > "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> > are not "carbon negative"?*
> > **
> > *Thanks.*
> > **
> > *Kevin*
> >
> >
> > Paul O's seems to be in this nice class.   This is not to mention the
> > global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
> > altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
> > with biochar
> >
> >     I repeat that I know you know this.  Some on this list don't.
> >
> >     Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
> science
> > of (especially clean) stove operation.
> >
> >   Ron
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >  *From: *"Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
> > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
> > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to
> > the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
> the
> > biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
> >
> > Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>  Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
> >> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens.
> Getting
> >> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one
> of
> >> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the
> power
> >> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
> >> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
> >> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting
> out 2
> >> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
> >> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
> >> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a
> beautiful
> >> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would
> produce a
> >> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in
> London
> >> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
> >>
> >> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
> >> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
> >> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
> >>
> >> Paul Olivier
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> **
> >>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
> >>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
> poised
> >>> to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,  are
> >>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
> addition they
> >>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
> manufature
> >>> exist.
> >>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
> >>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
> stove
> >>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
> >>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
> >>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and
> hammered
> >>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
> >>> a major hurdle.
> >>>
> >>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
> >>>
> >>> Michael N Trevor
> >>> Marshall Islands
> >>>
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
> >>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
> >>> expertise?
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
> >>> message.
> >>>
> >>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
> >>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on
> all
> >>> four of them.
> >>>
> >>> 1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
> >>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
> >>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
> >>>
> >>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
> >>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in
> any
> >>> significant segment of the population.   We need some documentation
> that xx
> >>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously
> tried
> >>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for
> their
> >>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
> >>> each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
> >>>
> >>> Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger studies will
> >>> follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about sales.
> This
> >>> is about sustained usage.
> >>>
> >>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
> >>> stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing
> such
> >>> studies?
> >>>
> >>> 2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection about
> >>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
> >>> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data
> from the
> >>> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps
> in the
> >>> coming 3 months.
> >>>
> >>> 3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
> >>> with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for
> numbers of
> >>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated in a
> >>> factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
> >>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not
> doubt
> >>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but
> with
> >>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is
> still
> >>> not in hand.
> >>>
> >>> 4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
> >>> functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on this
> and I
> >>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
> >>> stoves are a focal issue.
> >>>
> >>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the
> ones
> >>> with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available, that
> will
> >>> be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be considered
> >>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the breakthrough for
> >>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> >>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
> >>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
> >>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
> >>>
> >>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
> >>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
> >>>
> >>> Paul A and Ron,
> >>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
> >>> "belivers" and start from there.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Otto
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
> 05/25/13
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> >> Dalat
> >> Vietnam
> >>
> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
> >> http://www.esrla.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:56:38 -0300
> From: Rogerio carneiro de miranda <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com>
> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID:
>         <CADB_T=it+9rJ3xtcKdTWKxc4X-rzq1XTxq=zo8W6=
> bYi_v5uxQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Ron, Crispin, et al
>
> Good to hear from you after all these years.
>
> Ron, last time we were together, I believe we were in a favela of Managua
> measuring IAP, while Bill Clinton was literaly flying over our heads with
> his helicopter  visiting Nicaragua after hurricane Mitch.
>
> Yes Prole?a Nicaragua is very much active, although I am not involved
> anymore. Visit them at http://prolenaecofogon.org/
>
> I have never stopped working with stoves, but always in the background,
> even if I was busy with something else.
>
> Belo Horizonte is my home town, but I am here because to make a living out
> of stoves, here is a good place to be since middle class people in southern
> Brazil likes to cook on woodstoves for recreational reasons (weekends and
> holidays with family and friends). Due to that, our company Ecofog?o can
> focus on two market segments, 1) the middle class who can pay US$ 500 for
> an stove and sustain the company, and 2) the poor from the northeast who
> need a cheaper stove model, and for whom we are working hard with NGOs and
> local governments to develop that market.
>
> The plancha stove you saw in our website was first designed by Prole?a in
> Managua with the big help from Larry Winiarsky around the year 2000, and
> here in Brazil it has been very well accepted since people want ovens.
>  Adding water heater was easier, as traditionally rural homes always uses
> hot water from woodstoves, and one can buy the accessories in the hardware
> stores, like coil, pipes and hot water tanks for stoves.
>
> One additional usage is space heating, since it is a quite clean stove for
> indoors. Our clients use it in cool areas of southern Brazil to keep the
> kitchen and house warm.  I have one myself at a mountain house, which cook,
> bake, heat the water for shower and kitchen, and moreover warn our house,
> all tasks with a maximun consumption of just 1.3 kg of wood per hour.
>
> This stove is now being sold to families who lives in apartments as well.
>  Some modern condos in southern Brazil are now coming with a central
> chimney for charcoal barbecue stoves (churrasco).  Some people instead of
> barbecue stove prefers a woodstove, and so they replace it with our
> Ecofog?o and connect it to the central chimney, which works very well.
>  This is a new market segment.
>
> While I was at the World Bank (actually ESMAP), upper management was not
> interested on cook stoves at that time.  Now the tide has changed, and
> seems that The World Bank is doing more on this front.
>
> Ecofog?o is partnered with GACC, and we will put their logo in our website
> soon.
>
> As for charcoal stoves in Brazil,  it has not been developed as yet.
>  Millions of families uses it for cooking in the north, but traditional
> less efficient models.   Char-making stoves have not been explored yet,
> However we aim to develop a model for that market in the near future.
>
> Our path to develop a middle class wood stove was a business strategy to
> take advantage of the recreational market, and sustain the business.  The
> only donation we have received was from Trees, Water and People who
> supprted us during our first year (2004), but other than that we have
> sustained ourselves only through sales, which has been a long and difficult
> path.
>
> Best
>
> Rog?rio
>
>
>
>
> 2013/5/27 <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>
> > Rogerio,  cc stove list
> >
> >     Very wonderful site and set of different models!   Congratulations on
> > their development.
> >
> > Since you have been in (but sometimes out of) the stove business about as
> > long as anyone on this list perhaps you can answer a few questions.
> >
> >    1.  Is there still a Pro Lena activity in Managua - and are you also
> > involved there?
> >
> >    2.  Did you grow up in Belo Horizonte - MG, or are there other reasons
> > for that location?
> >
> >    3.  The short video of you explaining the stove while cooking had 8
> > different activities (5 pots, two trays in oven, and hot water) going on.
> > Typcally we hear that the plancha type stoves are not so efficient, but
> > this looks like a world record for compactness of activities.  Can you
> > explain a bit more on your rationale for gong to the design you
> > demonstrated.
> >
> >    4.  You spent some time at the World Bank.  Can you tell a little of
> > any stove-related experiences there?
> >
> >     5.  Brazil (along the Amazon) being the home of Terra Preta, we who
> > are interested in carbon sequestration are hoping to hear more from
> Brazil
> > on charcoal-making stoves.  What do you hear about Brazilians looking for
> > char-making stoves?
> >
> >    6.   You show PCIA, but not GACC on your website, and we didn't see
> you
> > in Phnom Penh.  Will you be active in GACC?
> >
> >    7.   Your note below to Paul O was very positive - and the video was
> > excellent.  Your stoves look very well designed and made.  Any lessons or
> > negatives to report about the path you have been on for many years - so
> as
> > to help others on this list?
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From: *"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com>
> > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 7:48:19 AM
> > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > We are already installing Ecostoves powered by rocket stoves into middle
> > class homes, as pictured (http://www.ecofogao.com.br/index.php?id=29),
> > and we hope one day TLUD will be able to enter this same market.  We are
> > waiting for the technology to mature a bit more, to introduce Ecostoves
> > powered by TLUD for middle class, who can pay easily US$ 200+ for such
> > stove.
> >
> > Paul Anderson was here in 2004 trying to develop a combined stove TLUD
> and
> > Rocket stove, but at that time it was not practical to use it yet.
> >
> > Rog?rio
> >
> > 2013/5/26 Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> >
> >> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget,
> >> to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich
> >> people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our
> >> big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
> of
> >> the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
> made
> >> of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
> about
> >> three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
> to 3
> >> kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
> contoured to
> >> match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost
> >> more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame
> that
> >> would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable
> >> biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or
> Laos,
> >> Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
> >>
> >> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
> >> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
> >> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
> >>
> >> Paul Olivier
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> **
> >>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
> >>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
> poised
> >>> to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,  are
> >>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
> addition they
> >>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
> manufature
> >>> exist.
> >>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
> >>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
> stove
> >>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
> >>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
> >>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and
> hammered
> >>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
> >>> a major hurdle.
> >>>
> >>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
> >>>
> >>> Michael N Trevor
> >>> Marshall Islands
> >>>
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
> >>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
> >>> expertise?
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
> >>> message.
> >>>
> >>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
> >>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on
> all
> >>> four of them.
> >>>
> >>> 1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
> >>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
> >>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
> >>>
> >>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
> >>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in
> any
> >>> significant segment of the population.   We need some documentation
> that xx
> >>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously
> tried
> >>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for
> their
> >>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
> >>> each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
> >>>
> >>> Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger studies will
> >>> follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about sales.
> This
> >>> is about sustained usage.
> >>>
> >>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
> >>> stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing
> such
> >>> studies?
> >>>
> >>> 2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection about
> >>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
> >>> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data
> from the
> >>> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps
> in the
> >>> coming 3 months.
> >>>
> >>> 3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
> >>> with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for
> numbers of
> >>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated in a
> >>> factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
> >>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not
> doubt
> >>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but
> with
> >>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is
> still
> >>> not in hand.
> >>>
> >>> 4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
> >>> functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on this
> and I
> >>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
> >>> stoves are a focal issue.
> >>>
> >>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the
> ones
> >>> with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available, that
> will
> >>> be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be considered
> >>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the breakthrough for
> >>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> >>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
> >>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
> >>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
> >>>
> >>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
> >>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
> >>>
> >>> Paul A and Ron,
> >>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
> >>> "belivers" and start from there.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Otto
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
> 05/25/13
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> >> Dalat
> >> Vietnam
> >>
> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
> >> http://www.esrla.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:25:34 -0700
> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
> Message-ID: <35453EB5-5EDA-4FF6-BBB7-320B669184CD at legacyfound.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Amigos of the next best stove idea?
>
> The recent ongoing multi-sourced probe of Ron Larsen's stove, seems like a
> debate  about the "open share" versus "private ownership" model  eh ?
>
> A few thoughts on this based on what is happening with us as we go on now
> 16 years of briquette technology development, training and extension.
>
> By virtue of broad exposure, you demonstrate "common knowledge".  in some
> cases "prior knowledge" of the invention (at least in part, as most all
> "new ideas" are a result of someones refurmulation of their agglomerated
> previous exposure eh ?)
> So where does that leave one as "inventor" ? Anyone can eventually copy
> you if not almost immediately do so.. What they cannot do is provide the
> service support and the passion that you put into your idea?
> Sometimes when we purchase something (quality, cost and performance being
> near equal), we are buying the owner's service and love of it as well. I do
> not think that these qulities can be codified and replicated on a 3d
> printer much less patented. The ideas 'protection' becomes the owner's own
> reputation for character and quality of support.
>
> We follow this model and try to encourage our fellow briquetters to do the
> same with their own ideas.. In this form as it is emerging, one would sell
> locally, make and sell   instructional manuals  anywhere and but agree to
> share their "ideas" globally.   The security is ironically in the exchange?
> We have had dozens of copycats and self styled individuals, students,
> missionares, and institutional inventors of briquetting pop up all over the
> place but few have the support network to backstop the would be buyer?
> MAybe they develop it maybe not?If they do a good job then we try to link
> to them and build it. Meanwhile global exposure to the concept --hence
> awareness and market interest grows.. They can become your best advertisers
> !
>
>  Peace love and joy ---with a full stomach.
>
> Richard Stanley
> www.legacyfound.org
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 33, Issue 33
> **************************************
>

-- 
Art Donnelly
President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
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