[Stoves] Is LPG all that bad?

Tue Dec 2 23:20:26 CST 2014

Dear AD,
Thank you for this information. RE: " a lot of households boil their
drinking water" in your message,  I would want to understand why they
choose to boil water their water.  If the contamination is biological in
nature, I would suggest there is a group locally (agua pura para el
peublo.org) that distributes WAPIs (water pasteurization indicators) saving
fuel from only heating to sub boil temps,  among also training in fairly
rapid fecal coliform detection protocols. I also know of local group that
builds and distributes a very efficient rocket stove for institutions and
they also have a water pasteurization insert and also an autoclave insert
which could also be of value to the village, instove.org.   If
contamination is heavy metals (though boiling would do nothing beneficial I
think) then biochar filter could be helpful to remove perceived toxins.
Kind regards,
Jeff Holiman

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Crispin,
> cost of subsidised LPG in India is about USCents 50 per kg, while that of
> the non-subsidized LPG is about US$1 per kg.. A lot of households boil
> their drinking water. Therefore, a highly efficient water boiler would be
> welcome
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>  ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
>
> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
>>  Thanks AD
>>
>> Do you have any idea as to the scale of the subsidy actually being used?
>> I have never investigated the Indian Market.
>>
>> James Robinson and I investigated the composition and heat energy in
>> Indian 'LPG' which is a blend of propane and butane. It is significantly
>> different in proportion from the South African 'Handigas'.
>>
>> The heat contents are similar, of course.
>>
>> Do you think that a very clean water heater - a specialised device -
>> would be of interest to rural homes? I envision a heater that is loaded,
>> lit and not touched again until the water boils. With prepared fuel it
>> should be very fuel efficient and very clean. It could be much more fuel
>> efficient than a stove.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>>
>> BBM 2B567CC3
>>    *From: *Anand Karve
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, December 2, 2014 22:52
>> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> *Reply To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Is LPG all that bad?
>>
>>   Dear Crispin,
>> the life style of the urban people serves as the role model for the
>> rural people. Our organisation is in the business of selling stoves
>> using biomass as fuel. We found that it was practically impossible to
>> sell our clean burning stoves to individual users in the rural areas
>> because firstly the clean burning stoves are costly and secondly
>> because the rural people aspire to use LPG. Our biomass burning stoves
>> are purchased by urban philanthrophists who distribute them as free
>> gifts in villages adopted by them. This means that even the biomass
>> burning stoves have to be subsidised, if you want the rural people to
>> use them. The subsidy on LPG is available in India only to individual
>> households and only on a particular number of cylinders per year per
>> family. Restaurants, hostels, industrial establishments etc. have to
>> buy LPG at the non-subsidised price, which is about double the
>> subsidised price.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>>
>> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>>
>> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>> > Dear AD
>> >
>> > LPG is a wonderful fuel for those who can get it and pay for it.
>> Because of
>> > cost, kerosene was heavily subsidised in Indonesia. It became so
>> expensive
>> > when the price of oil was run up that the subsidy  was literally
>> > bankrupting the country. They tried to raise the price and there were
>> > riots.
>> >
>> > So they embarked on the only other viable plan: to switch their subsidy
>> to
>> > LPG but at a lower level.
>> >
>> > This was accomplished in a total of 4 years, I believe. Some 40 million
>> > stoves were given away. Recently Cecil Cook and the WB social science
>> team
>> > led by Helen Carlsson discovered that 70% of the poor people 'cooking
>> with
>> > wood' also used LPG at least part of the time.
>> >
>> > Cecil found it is used for very particular tasks which fit the
>> description
>> > you gave below - largely for quick cooking and reheating of food,
>> making tea
>> > and when the pots should remain clean.
>> >
>> > Problems emerged last year when the budget allocation for LPG and
>> gasoline
>> > (which sells for $0.66 a litre) ran out long before year end. Same
>> problem
>> > as before : rising energy prices.
>> >
>> > Now that there is a determined effort to drive the international price
>> of
>> > oil down, perhaps they get a reprieve for a while, but the fact
>> remains, to
>> > give access to LPG it has to be subsidised. Otherwise they will use more
>> > wood.
>> >
>> > It is not a matter of one of the other, people use both, but the switch
>> to
>> > wood is immediate if the price rises.
>> >
>> > Globally there is a shortage of LPG. Thus pressure on the price will
>> remain.
>> > Part of the price is a relatively expensive delivery cost as every
>> aspect
>> > of it is regulated and has to be very safe. I say that with kerosene in
>> mind
>> > which is far cheaper to distribute. It can also be loaned or sold to a
>> > neighbour on a small scale.
>> >
>> > Both can be burned extremely cleanly so it is a disappointment to see
>> the
>> > WHO refer to kerosene as a 'dirty fuel' in need of being removed from
>> all
>> > homes. A stove that cannot burn it properly is the guilty party, not 'a
>> > fuel'.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear List,
>> > I saw recently a lot of criticism against LPG. As cooking fuel, it is
>> > really superb, giving a blue flame without smoke or soot,
>> > instantaneous ignition, finger-tip control of flame intensity, no ash,
>> > etc. Being liquifiable, relatively large quantities of it can be
>> > filled into cylinders which occupy very little space in the kitchen.
>> > One can carry the cylinder around if the gas is needed elsewhere. I
>> > understand that LPG is a by product of petroleum refining and that one
>> > cannot avoid the production of LPG as long as we are using petroleum
>> > and refining it. So, if we stopped using it as cooking fuel, we shall
>> > have to find an alternative use for it.
>> > Yours
>> > A.D.Karve
>> > ***
>> > Dr. A.D. Karve
>> >
>> > Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>> >
>> > Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
>> (ARTI)
>> >
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