[Stoves] Collaborative Stove Design Workshop

Paul Anderson psanders at ilstu.edu
Thu May 22 09:34:23 CDT 2014


Jock, Kevin and all,

Jock, please provide info/links etc about the Jerry Whitfield's new 
heater that produces biochar [and please use a new Subject line].    
Depending on its price and capabilities, it might have a market for some 
affluent people.   Perhaps not enough to make it "profitable", but there 
is more to this discussion and the needed actions than only about making 
profits.   [[ Similarly, the cookstoves-for-impoverished-people 
activities are not driven only by profit motives  ---  although that is 
where the money seems to be going. ]]   What has Whitfield offered?

Kevin, you wrote in your reply to Jock:
> #Given that the wood energy distribution is about 50% in the Char and 
> 50% in teh pyrolysis gases, a person wanting an efficient, effective 
> and safe stove would have to consume roughly twice as much fuel for 
> the same stove effect.
one correction:   in biomass, about 70% of the heat energy comes out 
with pyrolysis (30 % stays in char).   But about 50% of carbon atoms are 
in the char and in the released (usually combusted) pyrolytic gases.    
And about 20% of weight is in the char and 80% of weight is gone via the 
pyrolytic gases and moisture content. Could be plus or minus 5 to 10% in 
all cases depending on how a device is operated, and it varies with some 
biomass.

I learned from Tom Reed and others that it is the hydrogen in 
carbohydrates    (C+O+H)  that gives the energy difference. Otherwise 
you would be correct that combustion of half of the carbon would give 
half of the energy.    The other interesting fact from this that 
impressed me is that the Oxygen released during pyrolysis (from within 
the fuel, not from the surrounding air) will readily "combust" with the 
Hydrogen to give H2O, probably in the instant of pyrolysis that releases 
those atoms in a hot environment.   There is some surplus H that comes 
out with the pyrolytic gases, but how much is beyond my training and 
interests in chemistry.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 5/21/2014 2:01 PM, Jock Gill wrote:
> Ronald,
>
> I was actually not saying do nothing, but rather trying to draw 
> attention to the need to move beyond combustion if we wish to address 
> the issue of excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  Any conversation about new 
> and improved stoves should look at the future as well as the present. 
>  I did not see that in the announcement for the Collaborative Stove 
> Workshop. I only saw combustion.  Did I miss something?
>
> I am fully aware of the bang for the buck in charcoal and also fully 
> aware that the market, at scale, for such does not yet exist.  This 
> makes the effort to fund commercial scale pyrolytic devices very 
> difficult.  Investors want to  know what price you will get in the 
> afternoon for the charcoal you make in the morning.  Today, there is 
> no reliable answer to that question - esp. if we are talking in terms 
> of tons.
>
> I am not sure what you mean about savings, as I tend to see a very 
> distributed model working with local waste streams.  I am not 
> generally in favor of large centralized plants which might very well 
> require the transport you mention. Further, the biomass does not have 
> to be "dry" so long as it has a moisture content of 20% or less.  I am 
> not sure what you are basing your assumptions on, but they are not 
> correct.
>
> Of course, pellet mills that everyone likes do tend to be large and 
> centralized and do require transport of raw material to the plant and 
> finished product to the end user.  How many ship loads of pellets go 
> from North America to  Europe? I suppose you would agree that, if 
> transport is OK for wood pellets, then at least a similar degree of 
> transport would be OK for biomass feed stock for pyrolysis?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jock
>
> Jock Gill
> P.O. Box 3
> Peacham,  VT 05862
>
> +1 (802) 503-1258
>
>
> On May 21, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de 
> <mailto:rwhongser at web.de>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jock,
>> It seems to me that you confuse mitigate and extract. Dean and John 
>> seem to me to be looking for a marketable way to contribute positive 
>> change to the renewable side of the things. Your logic seems to me to 
>> be saying: "If you can't extract, don't do anything!" I think that's 
>> at least wrong headed even within your logical framework. Also, if 
>> you allow the neutral side of things onto the playing field there may 
>> also be a market for the char -- maybe not a market you like, but 
>> there's more bang for your buck in charcoal and you could also figure 
>> in the savings on transport costs over against dry-raw biomass.
>>
>> respectfully,
>> Ronald von Bayrischradltraumtag
>>
>>
>> On 21.05.2014 18:33, Jock Gill wrote:
>>> Dean & John,
>>>
>>> The simple fact is that no combustion device will ever remove carbon 
>>> from the atmosphere.  If a fundamental problem is that there is too 
>>> much CO2 [carbon] in the atmosphere, then removing carbon from the 
>>> atmosphere is an essential imperative.
>>>
>>> The most direct, simple and proven way to remove carbon from the 
>>> atmosphere is the pyrolysis of biomass.  Therefore, what we need are 
>>> heating devices that are based on pyrolysis.  Combustion is both old 
>>> school and not an answer to the imperative of carbon removal.
>>>
>>> For the record, Jerry Whitfield, who designed and manufactured the 
>>> first working wood pellet stove in 1984, has now developed the 
>>> designs for a pyrolytic parlor stove.  Unfortunately, at this time, 
>>> there is no market for the carbon [biochar] that such a stove would 
>>> create.  Until such time as the imperative of removing carbon from 
>>> the atmosphere is recognized and valued, perhaps a significant 
>>> carbon tax, there is no way to commercialize pyrolytic devices in 
>>> general, much less for residential use.  It may also be required 
>>> that we reject the old industrial era model of extraction and 
>>> exploitation and replace it with a model more early akin to 
>>> regenerative stewardship, with an eye towards a future that could be 
>>> vibrant, dynamic and abundant.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jock
>>>
>>> Jock Gill
>>> P.O. Box 3
>>> Peacham,  VT 05862
>>>
>>> google.com/+JockGill <http://google.com/+JockGill>
>>>
>>> :> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:
>>>
>>> Via iPad
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:deankstill at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> Renewable energy technology is developing quickly to mitigate 
>>>> global climate change.  We don't have any time to lose if wood and 
>>>> pellet heating technology is going to compete amongst the renewable 
>>>> energy solutions.
>>>>
>>>> Pellet stoves and then automated pellet boilers were a huge 
>>>> technological step forward.  We believe a next step may be 
>>>> affordable, automated wood stoves to maximize the potential of the 
>>>> stove and minimize its inefficiencies.
>>>>
>>>> That is why we are holding the Collaborative Stove Design Workshop 
>>>> <http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2014/05/collaborative-stove-design-workshop.html> at 
>>>> Brookhaven National Lab from Nov. 4 - 7.  Building off the very 
>>>> successful Wood Stove Decathlon, we will test, assess and help 
>>>> improve up to 6 automated biomass heating stoves, who will be 
>>>> competing for a modest prize.  Instead of a large event open to the 
>>>> public, this will be an intensive 4 days for 30 stove professionals 
>>>> to push the envelope of stove innovation.
>>>>
>>>> Aprovecho is building a 'super-clean' biomass heating stove entry 
>>>> based on cooking stove technology that is more advanced than 
>>>> current heating stoves.
>>>>
>>>> John Ackerly
>>>> Dean Still
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
>
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