[Stoves] Collaborative Stove Design Workshop

[Jock Gill]

Ronald,

I was actually not saying do nothing, but rather trying to draw attention to the need to move beyond combustion if we wish to address the issue of excess CO2 in the atmosphere.  Any conversation about new and improved stoves should look at the future as well as the present.  I did not see that in the announcement for the Collaborative Stove Workshop. I only saw combustion.  Did I miss something?

I am fully aware of the bang for the buck in charcoal and also fully aware that the market, at scale, for such does not yet exist.  This makes the effort to fund commercial scale pyrolytic devices very difficult.  Investors want to  know what price you will get in the afternoon for the charcoal you make in the morning.  Today, there is no reliable answer to that question - esp. if we are talking in terms of tons.

I am not sure what you mean about savings, as I tend to see a very distributed model working with local waste streams.  I am not generally in favor of large centralized plants which might very well require the transport you mention. Further, the biomass does not have to be “dry” so long as it has a moisture content of 20% or less.  I am not sure what you are basing your assumptions on, but they are not correct.

Of course, pellet mills that everyone likes do tend to be large and centralized and do require transport of raw material to the plant and finished product to the end user.  How many ship loads of pellets go from North America to  Europe? I suppose you would agree that, if transport is OK for wood pellets, then at least a similar degree of transport would be OK for biomass feed stock for pyrolysis?

Cheers,

Jock

Jock Gill
P.O. Box 3
Peacham,  VT 05862

+1 (802) 503-1258


On May 21, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote:

> Dear Jock, 
> It seems to me that you confuse mitigate and extract. Dean and John seem to me to be looking for a marketable way to contribute positive change to the renewable side of the things. Your logic seems to me to be saying: "If you can't extract, don't do anything!" I think that's at least wrong headed even within your logical framework. Also, if you allow the neutral side of things onto the playing field there may also be a market for the char -- maybe not a market you like, but there's more bang for your buck in charcoal and you could also figure in the savings on transport costs over against dry-raw biomass.
> 
> respectfully,
> Ronald von Bayrischradltraumtag
> 
> 
> On 21.05.2014 18:33, Jock Gill wrote:
>> Dean & John,
>> 
>> The simple fact is that no combustion device will ever remove carbon from the atmosphere.  If a fundamental problem is that there is too much CO2 [carbon] in the atmosphere, then removing carbon from the atmosphere is an essential imperative.
>> 
>> The most direct, simple and proven way to remove carbon from the atmosphere is the pyrolysis of biomass.  Therefore, what we need are heating devices that are based on pyrolysis.  Combustion is both old school and not an answer to the imperative of carbon removal.
>> 
>> For the record, Jerry Whitfield, who designed and manufactured the first working wood pellet stove in 1984, has now developed the designs for a pyrolytic parlor stove.  Unfortunately, at this time, there is no market for the carbon [biochar] that such a stove would create.  Until such time as the imperative of removing carbon from the atmosphere is recognized and valued, perhaps a significant carbon tax, there is no way to commercialize pyrolytic devices in general, much less for residential use.  It may also be required that we reject the old industrial era model of extraction and exploitation and replace it with a model more early akin to regenerative stewardship, with an eye towards a future that could be vibrant, dynamic and abundant.  
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jock
>> 
>> Jock Gill
>> P.O. Box 3
>> Peacham,  VT 05862
>> 
>> google.com/+JockGill
>> 
>> :> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:
>> 
>> Via iPad
>> 
>> On May 21, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear friends,
>>> 
>>> Renewable energy technology is developing quickly to mitigate global climate change.  We don't have any time to lose if wood and pellet heating technology is going to compete amongst the renewable energy solutions.
>>> 
>>> Pellet stoves and then automated pellet boilers were a huge technological step forward.  We believe a next step may be affordable, automated wood stoves to maximize the potential of the stove and minimize its inefficiencies. 
>>> 
>>> That is why we are holding the Collaborative Stove Design Workshop at Brookhaven National Lab from Nov. 4 - 7.  Building off the very successful Wood Stove Decathlon, we will test, assess and help improve up to 6 automated biomass heating stoves, who will be competing for a modest prize.  Instead of a large event open to the public, this will be an intensive 4 days for 30 stove professionals to push the envelope of stove innovation.
>>> 
>>> Aprovecho is building a 'super-clean' biomass heating stove entry based on cooking stove technology that is more advanced than current heating stoves.
>>> 
>>> John Ackerly
>>> Dean Still
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>> 
>> 
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