[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
Daniel-John Peterson
exiledspirit at gmail.com
Mon Jun 1 05:45:54 CDT 2015
Sent from my phone.
On May 30, 2015 2:00 AM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Secondary air in Rocket Works stove www.rocketworks.org
> (Adrian Padt)
> 2. examples of biochar stoves in micro enterprise? (Jock Gill)
> 3. VERY interesting article in LOW-TECH MAGAZINE: Well-Tended
> Fires Outperform Modern Cooking Stoves (Paul Anderson)
> 4. About finding good publications on Stoves (Paul Anderson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 21:42:25 +0200
> From: Adrian Padt <adrian at rocketworks.org>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Works stove
> www.rocketworks.org
> Message-ID: <a527977f941f9fa40b410bc225e8dd03 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi Marc,
>
> We do use insulation.
> Its dynamic air insulation. The only better would be vacuum.
> We preheat the air between the two layers of insulative stainless steel
> and regulate the flow (self regulated by apertures to around 300?C)
> This provides ideal ignition conditions for the unburned gasses rising
> through the chimney. A little more thermal mass is possibly an option for
> improved thermal and flame stability, but on all our tests with several
> different solid insulations the thermal efficiencies and combustion
> efficiencies were in fact worse, or not effective. The downside on weight
> longevity and other factors also convinced us to move away from these
> materials.
>
> Kind regards
> Adrian
>
>
>
> Christa (and all),
> Thank you very much for your explanation.After seeing this, I really think
> the gasifying feature is going to be a MUST for rocket stoves that look
> for increased efficiency and low emissions.
> For me, one wonderful thing about Rocket Stoves is they allow for
> continuous operation, a feature that TLUDs still doesn't allow. With the
> gasifying feature , the Rocket Stoves can achieve similar burning
> cleaningness of a TLUD with the continuous feeding mode.
> I wonder about the insulation: it seems clear to me that this stoves have
> much less insulation that a typical rocket stove. Wouldn't it increase
> performance with some kind of insulation around the secondary air tube?
> Another idea, following Crispin comments about controlling primary air:
> wouldn't be an improvement some kind of control of primary air? Maybe the
> feeding tube could have a closing door with an sliding little window on
> it?
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> From: stoves at foodandfuel.info
> Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 19:44:12 +0200
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Works stove
> www.rocketworks.org
>
> Marc, as I have been assembling and using the ZamaZama stoves quite often,
> maybe I can help to clarify a bit on the air. I agree with you, that it
> is a step forward in rocket stoves, linking them to the lessons learned
> with TLUD'sThis is why Rocketworks calls them 'gasifying Rocket stoves'.
> There are multliple air entries on the ZamaZama stove. I normally go by
> the definition that 'primary air' enters through the bed of the solid fuel
> and 'secondary air' comes into the zone of the gaseous fuel, previously
> created through the pyrolysis of the solid biomass fuel. So whatever you
> want to call the types of air, I put them in the order of the levels where
> they come into play in the ZamaZama stove:
> 1) the primary air comes in under the solid fuel through the W-shaped air
> grate
> 2) there is a small slot from inward-bent metal functioning as air inlet
> at the back of the firechamber just above the air grate. It is just
> slightly above the solid fuel level. whether this could be called
> additional primary air or early secondary air is a more academic debate.
> the function of the air coming in here is to help keeping the flames away
> from the metal wall and push them more to the centre of the firechamber.
> This works quite well.
> The photo below shows the next entries of 'secondary' air that is going to
> mix with the gaseous fuel:3) the vertical slots that you were mentioning
> are some centimeters below the upper crimped edge of the firechamber,
> letting in preheated air rising between the firechamber and the outer heat
> shield into the firechamber. this air mixes with the gases and helps to
> complete combustion in the final stretch of the firechamber before hitting
> the bottom of the pot.
> 4) some more preheated air mixes with the gases forced sideways by the
> pot-bottom through the slot between the crimped edge of the firechamber
> and the edge of the stove top. you can see the effect in the photo below.
> 5) the rest of the preheated air rising between the firechamber and the
> outer heat shield meets the gases under the pot-bottom through the gap
> between the heat shield and the inner tip of the holes in the stove-top
> alongside the vertical potrests. if the temperature is still high enough
> and there is still any unoxidised carbon remaining, reactions towards
> complete combustion can still continue here.
>
> So far I have not had any soot on the pots as long as I was using
> reasonably dry fuel. Even if there was some soot build-up in the ignition
> phase while temperatures were still too low for a complete combustion, it
> later on burnt that soot off the pot as temperatures were rising.
> To my opinion the clever air flow and the high temperatures inside the
> light-weight ZamaZama stove helps to complete the combustion as much as
> possible, thus the extremely low emission values in the test results.
> maybe you can see the different shapes of flames resulting from the air
> entries 3 and 4 in the second photo below. Of course the flame regime
> changes with a bottom of a pot forcing the flues into a centrifugal flow
> through a narrow gap between the potrests and the outer edge of the stove
> top. I can't remember what the fuel was in this trial below, it might have
> been towards the end of a run with pellets when we tried the stove with a
> modification to work as a TLUD.
> I hope this helps the understanding.regardsChrista
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 25.05.2015 um 11:15 schrieb Marquitusus
> <marquitusus at hotmail.com>:Thanks Adrian and Crispin.
> Congrats for Zama Zama, it really seems to be an step forward in rocket
> stoves, linking them to the lessons learned with TLUD's
> Adrian, in the Zama Zama videos on youtube, you refer to the "tertiary
> air slots" to these holes in the upper part of the combustion chamber.
> Wouldn't they be "secondary air" instead? If not, where are the secondary
> air gaps?
> On the other hand, after the secondary flames are formed, I see they
> immediately touch the cooking pot. Wouldn't be better to leave some space
> for this secondary flames to expand and finishing to burn all the gases
> before touching the bottom of the pot? Do you get completely clean pot
> bottoms after cooking with the Zama Zama?
> ThanksMarc
>
> > From: adrian at rocketworks.org
> > Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 06:31:31 +0200
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Works stove
> www.rocketworks.org
> >
> > Hi Marc,
> >
> > We concentrate the top of our 'Zama Zama' Stove and also use gill shaped
> > slots rather than holes.
> > These vents self-regulate the secondary air up to a point, when the
> stove
> > is lit at night, you can clearly see the ignition on all the vents
> > surrounding the top of the stove. So the stove can accommodate several
> > types of fuel too without having to change the design. With varying
> > calorific values on the fuel the vents self-regulate the air required.
> >
> > Have a look at the website photos www.rocketworks.org
> > We've also just completed a new natural draft TLUD pellet stove and our
> > Pocket Rocket will be released soon.
> > Thanks for the comments Crispin.
> >
> > --
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 14:31:03 -0400
> > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Stoves?
> >
>
> ?
> > A fire running with an open door is begging for there to be too much
> excess air. The Rocketworx stove (which is a bit of a misnomer because it
> is not a
> > true 'rocket stove' as usually defined) addresses this quite well. It
> has no air control door, but achieves the purpose anyway by departing
> significantly from the recommended Rocket Stove dimension set. It also has
> preheated secondary air and a small amount of tertiary or finishing air.
> And the result is still a low enough excess air level at high power.
> >
> > As a result, the combustion seems pretty good and the fire-to-pot heat
> > transfer efficiency can exceed 40%. For an 'uncontrolled' stove (nothing
> to adjust) this is quite high. The key is control over the excess air
> level.Am 25.05.2015 um 11:15 schrieb Marquitusus
> <marquitusus at hotmail.com>:Thanks Adrian and Crispin.
> Congrats for Zama Zama, it really seems to be an step forward in rocket
> stoves, linking them to the lessons learned with TLUD's
> Adrian, in the Zama Zama videos on youtube, you refer to the "tertiary
> air slots" to these holes in the upper part of the combustion chamber.
> Wouldn't they be "secondary air" instead? If not, where are the secondary
> air gaps?
> On the other hand, after the secondary flames are formed, I see they
> immediately touch the cooking pot. Wouldn't be better to leave some space
> for this secondary flames to expand and finishing to burn all the gases
> before touching the bottom of the pot? Do you get completely clean pot
> bottoms after cooking with the Zama Zama?
> ThanksMarc
>
> > From: adrian at rocketworks.org
> > Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 06:31:31 +0200
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Works stove
> www.rocketworks.org
> >
> > Hi Marc,
> >
> > We concentrate the top of our 'Zama Zama' Stove and also use gill shaped
> > slots rather than holes.
> > These vents self-regulate the secondary air up to a point, when the
> stove
> > is lit at night, you can clearly see the ignition on all the vents
> > surrounding the top of the stove. So the stove can accommodate several
> > types of fuel too without having to change the design. With varying
> > calorific values on the fuel the vents self-regulate the air required.
> >
> > Have a look at the website photos www.rocketworks.org
> > We've also just completed a new natural draft TLUD pellet stove and our
> > Pocket Rocket will be released soon.
> > Thanks for the comments Crispin.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Sent: 23 May 2015 08:00 PM
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 22
> >
> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> >
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Secondary air in Rocket Stoves? (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> > 2. Re: gasifying sawdust (Robert Lerner)
> > 3. Re: gasifying sawdust (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> > 4. Re: Ontario Stove Testing Camp 1, 9-10 July 2015 (Lloyd Helferty)
> > 5. Re: gasifying sawdust (Ronal W. Larson)
> > 6. Re: Sawdust Gasification / retort (scda2 at t-online.de)
> > 7. Re: Mongolian stove for heating (Engelke, Courtenay D (DCO/IEPS))
> > 8. Re: Mongolian stove for heating (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 14:31:03 -0400
> > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Stoves?
> > Message-ID: <COL401-EAS217DE44CE4CB3AA1F8E6A5AB1C00 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Dear Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > The primary problem is that side-fed stick burning stoves typically have
> > no
> > primary air control. Unless the air is brought under control, there is
> no
> > easy way to address the issue of excessive excess air (if that is a
> > permissible phrase).
> >
> >
> >
> > The approach taken with the traditional Keren stove which is being
> > improved
> > by GERES and YDD in Indonesia (very popular clay product) is to limit
> the
> > airflow using the pot-stove clearance. This sets a limit on the total
> air
> > flow without making any improvement to the way secondary air is added -
> > and
> > it literally costs nothing to implement. The pot becomes part of the
> > combustion chamber, basically.
> >
> >
> >
> > Adding jetted (fan as per U Colorado experiments or natural draft) to a
> > fire
> > that already has too much air is going to increase PM and CO under some
> > power conditions. The solution is to limit the ingress of air.
> >
> >
> >
> > Making a stove taller to create the draft needed for useful secondary
> > injection only adds to this requirement, though it can create the
> > necessary
> > mixing. Secondary air should only be added to a stove that is running
> > short
> > of air, and the designer should deliberately create the conditions in
> the
> > chamber where there is such a shortage. That is why the TLUD gasifiers
> are
> > so clean - there is almost no way to get excess air into the primary gas
> > output. In a way it is accidental. When secondary air is added, presto:
> > good
> > burning conditions with low EA.
> >
> >
> >
> > A fire running with an open door is begging for there to be too much
> > excess
> > air. The Rocketworx stove (which is a bit of a misnomer because it is
> not
> > a
> > true 'rocket stove' as usually defined) addresses this quite well. It
> has
> > no
> > air control door, but achieves the purpose anyway by departing
> > significantly
> > from the recommended Rocket Stove dimension set. It also has preheated
> > secondary air and a small amount of tertiary or finishing air. And the
> > result is still a low enough excess air level at high power.
> >
> >
> >
> > As a result, the combustion seems pretty good and the fire-to-pot heat
> > transfer efficiency can exceed 40%. For an 'uncontrolled' stove (nothing
> > to
> > adjust) this is quite high. The key is control over the excess air
> level.
> >
> >
> >
> > That said, I have seen test results for a liquid fuel stove with a 72%
> > heat
> > transfer efficiency at both high and low power. That is unusually good.
> > It
> > too is 'uncontrolled' save for the evaporator handle that sets the power
> > level. As a result, the CO level is very low at all powers. A really
> good
> > gasifier should be in that range, in my view.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Marquitusus
> > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 08:54
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: [Stoves] Secondary air in Rocket Stoves?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi to all,
> >
> >
> >
> > In the ETHOS 2015 Dean Still's presentation he states that:
> >
> >
> >
> > "In a Rocket stove only forced air mixing results in almost complete
> > combustion. Strong jets of air are needed to fully mix the air, flame,
> > smoke, and gas. Adding a chimney to a Rocket stove doesn't result in the
> > forceful jets that create adequate mixing. Adding height to the Rocket
> > combustion chamber, while giving more time for combustion to occur, also
> > draws in more cold air that results in more wood being burnt."
> >
> >
> >
> > I was wondering if this "forced air mixing" should came from natural
> > draft.
> > For example, at some distance above the combustion zone, we can make
> some
> > holes in the chimney allowing secondary air to enter and mix with the
> hot
> > gases, creating a secondary combustion zone. Maybe we can put a
> > "concentrator ring" above the holes like in a TLUD to create some
> > turbulence.
> >
> >
> >
> > This done, we can also increase the chimney height without the problem
> of
> > "drawing more cold air that results in more wood being burnt", as part
> of
> > the increased draft suction will be used to pull the secondary air
> inside
> > the chimney.
> >
> >
> >
> > With this tall chimney, hot gases can have more "mixing, time and
> > temperature" to achieve the desired complete combustion.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone tried something like this?
> >
> >
> >
> > Some questions arising:
> >
> > - What distance above the primary burning zone should we put the
> secondary
> > air?
> >
> > - What number and size should be secondary air holes? (we can take
> > experience from TLUDs)
> >
> > - What size should be the concentrator ring? (we can take experience
> from
> > TLUDs)
> >
> > - What height should be the chimney after the concentrator ring?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 18:06:11 -0600
> > From: Robert Lerner <bajarob at gmail.com>
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] gasifying sawdust
> > Message-ID: <B610A912-98C3-453B-80D7-D4E68D098F0D at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > We built a big (1M dia.) fan-forced sawdust TLUD gasifier in Costa Rica,
> > designed by Nikolaus Foidl.
> >
> > Used one blower with two butterfly valves?one to balance
> primary:secondary
> > air ratio, and the other to adjust total airflow.
> >
> > Worked great, though we combusted the char too, because were using the
> > TLUD to dry & prime a 4M? retort kiln filled with high MC wood. I have
> > pictures.
> >
> > Rob Lerner
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Robert A. Lerner
> > Mexico cell: 415-101-4591
> > U.S. direct: 619-618-1248
> > Skype ID: bajarob
> > Rob's Biochar TED talk <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgwwV6YrWb0>
> > Board member CATIS-Mexico <http://www.catis-mexico.org/>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > > On May 22, 2015, at 12:00 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:11:33 -0700
> > > From: Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com
> <mailto:tombreed2010 at gmail.com>>
> > > To: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>"
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> > > Subject: [Stoves] Sawdust Gasification
> > > Message-ID: <3B3D1B5B-91C0-408B-8FBE-38ADAE3896A2 at gmail.com
> > <mailto:3B3D1B5B-91C0-408B-8FBE-38ADAE3896A2 at gmail.com>>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > > Dear List
> > >
> > > One of the benefits of the TLUD stove working on wood chips is that it
> > produces 20% charcoal, which can be sequestered, removing 38 tons of CO2
> > from circulation for each ton of wood gasified (20% due to
> > formation of charcoal from the lignin and using the gas from the
> cellulose
> > (renewable) in place of propane, natural gas of coal gas.
> > >
> > > If we could gasify sawdust, it would bring another, typically dry,
> > source of fuel into the picture. However, the particle size of sawdust
> > does not permit TLUD operation. Does anyone have a suggestion of how to
> > gasify sawdust?
> > >
> > > TOM REED
> > >
> > > Thomas B Reed
> > > 280 Hardwick Rd
> > > Barre, MA 01005
> > > 508 353 7841
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 22:32:46 -0400
> > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> > To: Robert Lerner <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] gasifying sawdust
> > Message-ID: <COL401-EAS42851050F9D14E4AC2302A3B1CF0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 22:47:25 -0400
> > From: Lloyd Helferty <lhelferty at sympatico.ca>
> > To: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>, Stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Cc: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>, Biochar-Ontario
> > <biochar-ontario at googlegroups.com>, Ontario-SEA
> > <Ontario-SEA at yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Ontario Stove Testing Camp 1, 9-10 July 2015
> > Message-ID: <BLU437-SMTP99151C39A0F33E1EF35521C0CF0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > Thanks, Crispin!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
> > Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
> > www.biochar-consulting.ca
> > Earth Stewardship consultant, Passive Remediation Systems Ltd. (PRSI)
> > http://www.prsi.ca/
> > Promotions Manager, Climate Smart Agriculture Youth Network (CSAYN)
> > http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com/
> > http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture/
> > 48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
> > 905-707-8754
> > CELL: 647-886-8754
> > Skype: lloyd.helferty
> > Co-manager, Sustainable Agriculture Group
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458
> > Steering Committee coordinator
> > Canadian Biochar Initiative (CBI)
> > CURRENTS, A working group of Science for Peace
> > http://www.scienceforpeace.ca/currents/
> > President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
> > National Office, Canadian Carbon Farming Initiative (CCFI)
> > Organizing team member, 2013 N/A Biochar Symposium:
> > www.carbon-negative.us/symposium
> > Member of the Don Watershed Regeneration Council (DWRC)
> > Manager, Biochar Offsets Group:
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475
> > Advisory Committee Member, IBI
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717
> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675
> > http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario
> > http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/
> > http://www.biocharontario.ca
> > www.biochar.ca
> >
> > The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves
> > to its children.
> > - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, theologian (1906-1945)
> >
> > On 2015-05-21 4:07 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> > >
> > > Attention All Stove Testers!
> > >
> > > The Ontario Stove Testing Camp organising committee announces the
> > > first ever
> > >
> > > Ontario Stove Testing Camp (what else) to be held in 9-10^th July
> 2015.
> > >
> > > Come one, come all, and bring your stoves, a sharp pencil and a good
> > > sense of humour to:
> > >
> > > Burt?s Greenhouses
> > >
> > > 539 Maple Road,
> > >
> > > It is just north of Odessa, Ontario,
> > >
> > > Canada Postal Code K0H 2H0.
> > >
> > > If you are flying in, it looks like this
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/local?lid=YN1226x778245058&id=YN1226x778245058&q=Burt
> > %27s+Greenhouses+Odessa+ON&cp=44.30715%7E-76.73248>.
> > > If you are driving, look for this
> > >
> >
> <https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.307214,-76.732077,3a,90y,204.94h,89.47t/da
> >
> ta=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211sjIH2IrlPex6JZzckDHqYzg%212e0%216m1%211e1?hl=en>.
> > >
> > > Please see the attached announcement which has as many details as we
> > > were able to assemble onto two pages without hiring someone clever.
> > >
> > > The announcement is inserted below, which you can forward or share the
> > > .pdf. Please post far and wide. We know the most available will be in
> > > Eastern Canada and NE USA.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to seeing you?
> > >
> > > Crispin
> > >
> > > PS Don?t take any wooden
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=canadian+wooden+nickels&view=detailv2
> >
> &&&id=F318E446C0EE3D190FE97BDFF2FD3A0825554676&selectedIndex=19&ccid=GSMnF
> > OTi&simid=608017934887225475&thid=JN.fdE9ePF7PVaDpChkMWNalQ&ajaxhist=0>
> > > nickels
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=canadian+wooden+nickels&view=detailv2
> >
> &&&id=3713A5AEEAFC5C63591F0937EF3907299113B833&selectedIndex=0&ccid=%2fZpL
> >
> Nv2a&simid=608003538163140682&thid=JN.%2ff%2b0tTgz6ZW8DVlODABQSw&ajaxhist=
> > 0>.
> > >
> > > +++++++++++
> > >
> > > *Ontario Stove Testing Camp 1* **
> > >
> > > ? Measurements and Metrics for Product Development
> > >
> > > Are you developing a *solid or liquid fuel stove*?
> > >
> > > Are you looking for detailed information on *what to measure* to know
> > > if your stove is *better* or *worse*?
> > >
> > > Are you looking for information on *how to turn your measurements*
> > > into valuable *metrics*?
> > >
> > > If your answers are ?*Yes, yes, yes*!? then join us for two days of
> > > *testing, trials and tech talk* at the first ever Ontario Stove
> > > testing Camp.
> > >
> > > *Date*: 9 and 10 July 2015
> > >
> > > *Time*: As soon as you can get there, but try for 9AM on the 9^th of
> > July.
> > >
> > > *Contact*: Information on accommodation and reservations:
> > > stove.camp.ontario at gmail.com <mailto:stove.camp.ontario at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > Julien?s Cell Phone for July 4-10: 905-396-0549
> > > <tel:905-396-0549>
> > >
> > > *Cost*: $125
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/125Bucks.GIF>
> > > Canadian Bucks (US $100
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/100Bucks.GIF>)
> > > which covers all presentations, 2 lunches
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gophers&view=detailv2&id=21A8EE0E5A29
> >
> AEAC9402F4ED57DAD961DD7576F6&selectedindex=84&ccid=W1sL7aPA&simid=60803917
> > 3503844930&thid=JN.iQYfJiMujyHgOPBzazHsSA&mode=overlay&first=1>,
> > > 1 supper
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/Supper.GIF>,
> > > AV equipment
> > > <http://vitruvio.imss.fi.it/foto/isd/cens/censsm_23_300.jpg> and your
> > > chair
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=muskoka+chair&view=detailv2&&&id=CE2B
> >
> C3B4A390E7ED39FEF16F7DB8F49D66CCF8B1&selectedIndex=13&ccid=MYtq4N%2fG&simi
> > d=607989824330402015&thid=JN.Yjhg8LSVGkNXlk05tL%2f2AA&ajaxhist=0>,
> > > stove
> > > <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Wood+Stove+Doors&FORM=IDINIP&=0>
> > > fuel
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Wood+Chip+Pile&view=detailv2&&&id=7AE
> >
> 1D03E5B97EEC2593F75730742AFC93D02A3AD&selectedIndex=0&ccid=wim9rJra&simid=
> > 608045628844738705&thid=JN.cWQrwsFoSFxZ5O7TKL8Vng&ajaxhist=0>,
> > > facilities
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/Facilities1.GIF>
> > > and a thank you
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/Facilities.GIF>
> > > for Burt
> > >
> >
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Ontario_Stove_Testing_C
> > amp/OSTC_2015/Burt,_I_think.GIF>.
> > >
> > > *Place*: Burt?s Greenhouses
> > >
> >
> <https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.307214,-76.732077,3a,90y,204.94h,89.47t/da
> >
> ta=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211sjIH2IrlPex6JZzckDHqYzg%212e0%216m1%211e1?hl=en>,
> >
> > > 539 Maple Road, just North of *Odessa, Ontario*, Canada Postal Code
> > > K0H 2H0. Exit 599 off the 401, go north. Take the tee junction ?Maple
> > > Road? left. It is the second road north of Highway 401. There is a
> > > sign on that corner saying ?Burt?s Greenhouses? (that?s because Burt
> > > has more than one).
> > >
> > > Burt's Greenhouses is near the city of Kingston which has excellent
> > > train connections with Toronto. If you need a lift from Kingston, let
> > > us know.
> > >
> > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > > Using simple equipment an enthusiast might own, you will learn what to
> > > measure, when, when, what it mean and what to do with the numbers.
> > >
> > > Structured into a series of 45 minute sessions you will learn:
> > >
> > > Where to take measurements and when, Sources of some common errors,
> > > Targets for high performance stoves, Why the customer is more
> > > important than the inventor, but not the designer.
> > >
> > >
> > > Learn how to calculate:
> > >
> > > Fuel Burn rate, Fire power, Fuel consumption, CO/CO2 ratio, Excess air
> > > ratio, Emission factors for CO, NO, CO2 and H2, System efficiency,
> > > Heat transfer efficiency, Heat loss rate from a pot, The effect of a
> > > lid on test results, And a little basic mechanical engineering on mass
> > > transfer.
> > >
> > > The equipment used will include a basic combustion analyser, a
> > > temperature logger, a computer-logged digital scale and an Infrared
> > > Thermometer.
> > >
> > > The goal is to know what to look for and to be able to rapidly improve
> > > and eventually optimise the functions of your stove.
> > >
> > > Some of the time is unstructured so you can bring a project you are
> > > working on and we will discuss it together.
> > >
> > > Your guides through this event include:
> > >
> > > Alex English, who started the original ?Stoves? discussion list, a man
> > > who has developed small, large and very large and astonishing biomass
> > > burning devices (some of which we will see). He has been very active
> > > in this sector for ?a couple of decades? and lives by what he knows ?
> > > he has a biomass stove-heated house that employs advanced combustion
> > > ideas you have probably not seen before. The greenhouse boiler can
> > > produce biochar at will at the touch of a button. Be amazed.
> > >
> > > Crispin Pemberton-Pigott, international technical advisor for several
> > > stove projects at the World Bank and GIZ. He is a test methods and
> > > stove technology innovator with multiple patents, creator of the SeTAR
> > > chemical mass balance test method used in multiple countries, active
> > > in creating national stove standards in South Africa and a
> > > representative of the South African Bureau of Standards at the ISO
> > > creating new standards on TC-285. He is a co-founder of the
> > > South-South Sustainable Stoves Group, a collaborative effort among
> > > experts from developing countries formed to create scientifically
> > > sound and robust test methods for own use in developing countries.
> > >
> > > Julien Winter, a soil biologist, biochar technology and stove
> > > developer and a serial experimenter presently investigating high
> > > performance TLUD stoves of various power levels. He will bring a
> > > series of models to be used during demonstrations and will present
> > > some work on temperature evolution in TLUD?s which will be combined
> > > for the first time with real time mass-balance measurements to provide
> > > fresh insights into what is happening inside the stove.
> > >
> > > Participants with testing experience will be invited to share their
> > > insights to provide as much collaborative advancement as we can cram
> > > into two days. Wood chips and stick fuel are available. Bring your
> > > own pellets.
> > >
> > > A joint assessment of performance metrics will be a major outcome of
> > > the work: Are we measuring and reporting what we need, and what our
> > > customers need? Which metrics are valid and what are their
> > > limitations? How can we use innovating testing approaches to optimise
> > > stove performance in less time, at lower cost and reach higher
> > standards?
> > >
> > > And the catch-all class: what to do when you only have simple
> > > equipment in hand ? how much can you accomplish and when do you need
> > > to seek help?
> > >
> > > Numbers: We feel we can accommodate up to 20 participants and expect
> > > less. There are chairs, a projector, water, and if you want, you can
> > > sleep in your camper. It will be July! Enjoy the summer!
> > >
> > > Nearby places to stay include Odessa, Trenton, Kingston and Napanee
> > > (Avril Lavigne
> > >
> >
> <http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=avril+lavigne&view=detailv2&&&id=9B7B
> >
> F77E3A690787A6C7DAEC1FAB256E3129F56A&selectedIndex=1&ccid=k32ZIv2G&simid=6
> > 08033942237020993&thid=JN.bLr63AZi1lH5IuRmzqqKpg&ajaxhist=0>
> > > comes from Napanee, don?t you know? Keep your eyes peeled.)
> > >
> > > Please tell us if you are coming. We?ll wait up for you.
> > >
> > > A message from /The Committee/, OSTC-1
> > >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
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> > /attachments/20150522/d74006af/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 22:16:08 -0600
> > From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> > To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>,
> > "<bajarob at gmail.com>" <bajarob at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] gasifying sawdust
> > Message-ID: <26D903E3-52DA-4936-BF16-34433803E7A2 at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > Rob and list:
> >
> > Sounds like an important advance. Congratulations
> >
> > I?ll bet most on the list would like to see your pictures.
> >
> > What weight of sawdust? The fuel bed height? Times for the
> > pyrolysis front to reach the bottom and for total combustion? Have to
> > change to lots more ?primary? after you had made the char? Can you
> > guesstimate the several butterfly ratio settings? Power for the
> > fan/blower? Might you have been able to save the sawdust char if the 4
> > m3 wood was dry? Any way to describe cleanness of the burns?
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> > On May 22, 2015, at 6:06 PM, Robert Lerner <bajarob at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > We built a big (1M dia.) fan-forced sawdust TLUD gasifier in Costa
> Rica,
> > designed by Nikolaus Foidl.
> > >
> > > Used one blower with two butterfly valves?one to balance
> > primary:secondary air ratio, and the other to adjust total airflow.
> > >
> > > Worked great, though we combusted the char too, because were using the
> > TLUD to dry & prime a 4M? retort kiln filled with high MC wood. I have
> > pictures.
> > >
> > > Rob Lerner
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Robert A. Lerner
> > > Mexico cell: 415-101-4591
> > > U.S. direct: 619-618-1248
> > > Skype ID: bajarob
> > > Rob's Biochar TED talk
> > > Board member CATIS-Mexico
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >> On May 22, 2015, at 12:00 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:11:33 -0700
> > >> From: Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
> > >> To: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org"
> > >> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >> Subject: [Stoves] Sawdust Gasification
> > >> Message-ID: <3B3D1B5B-91C0-408B-8FBE-38ADAE3896A2 at gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >>
> > >> Dear List
> > >>
> > >> One of the benefits of the TLUD stove working on wood chips is that
> it
> > produces 20% charcoal, which can be sequestered, removing 38 tons of CO2
> > from circulation for each ton of wood gasified (20% due to
> > formation of charcoal from the lignin and using the gas from the
> cellulose
> > (renewable) in place of propane, natural gas of coal gas.
> > >>
> > >> If we could gasify sawdust, it would bring another, typically dry,
> > source of fuel into the picture. However, the particle size of sawdust
> > does not permit TLUD operation. Does anyone have a suggestion of how to
> > gasify sawdust?
> > >>
> > >> TOM REED
> > >>
> > >> Thomas B Reed
> > >> 280 Hardwick Rd
> > >> Barre, MA 01005
> > >> 508 353 7841
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
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> > /attachments/20150522/8c8267a3/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:12:14 +0200
> > From: "scda2 at t-online.de" <scda2 at t-online.de>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Sawdust Gasification / retort
> > Message-ID: <6481900395560365e860dd3.09201273 at email.t-online.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Dear Tom,
> > when i fill the 2 oil drums mentioned in my post fom 20th "mobile
> > adam-retort" with saw dust or wood chips (preferable) it might work.
> > its just a matter of time and waste fuel to burn get the biomass
> > carbonized.
> > With wood loaded it takes about 3 hours to get the wood to above 300?C
> > You want me to do it next week? We had a week of rain and cold (3?C) in
> > Germany so it was no fun to work outside.
> > Best
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original-Nachricht-----
> > Betreff: [Stoves] Sawdust Gasification
> > Datum: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:12:54 +0200
> > Von: Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
> > An: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > Dear List
> >
> > One of the benefits of the TLUD stove working on wood chips is that it
> > produces 20% charcoal, which can be sequestered, removing 38 tons of CO2
> > from circulation for each ton of wood gasified (20% due to
> > formation of charcoal from the lignin and using the gas from the
> cellulose
> > (renewable) in place of propane, natural gas of coal gas.
> >
> > If we could gasify sawdust, it would bring another, typically dry,
> source
> > of fuel into the picture. However, the particle size of sawdust does not
> > permit TLUD operation. Does anyone have a suggestion of how to gasify
> > sawdust?
> >
> > TOM REED
> >
> > Thomas B Reed
> > 280 Hardwick Rd
> > Barre, MA 01005
> > 508 353 7841
> >
> > > On May 20, 2015, at 2:13 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: big TLUD (Energies Naturals C.B.)
> > > 2. Re: big TLUD (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> > > 3. Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 4 photos (scda2 at t-online.de)
> > > 4. Re: big TLUD (Frank Shields)
> > > 5. Re: Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 4 photos (Frank Shields)
> > > 6. Re: big TLUD (Paul Anderson)
> > > 7. Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 3 additional drawings
> > > (scda2 at t-online.de)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 20:57:04 +0200
> > > From: "Energies Naturals C.B." <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] big TLUD
> > > Message-ID: <20150520205704.1291c4c6c4b03cf4fa290f12 at gmx.de>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >
> > > Hallo "big TLUDers",
> > >
> > > as I see from the various experiences and comments, the cross section
> of
> > a big TLUD is to some extent limited.
> > > That means that in order to build a bigger unit, it has to grow by
> > lenght, which in turn must enhance the resistance to the primary air
> flow.
> > From Imberts we know that the relation between fuel size and hearth or
> > throat is crucial.
> > > There must be enough space left between the particles to allow for a
> > adequate air/gas flow.
> > >
> > > My question: Does anyone have a clue on the matter of fuel size in
> TLUDs
> > ?
> > >
> > > Is it possible that larger diameters ask for larger chunks which in
> turn
> > provide more space between them and ideally spread the upflowing air
> more
> > uniformly?
> > >
> > > Rolf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 16 May 2015 22:40:14 -0500
> > > Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Char-makers,
> > >>
> > >> This good discussion on the Stoves Listserv is being shared with the
> > >> Biochar Listserv. Let discussions proceed on each and both and see
> > >> what happens.
> > >>
> > >> It is great to see so much discussion. And Bill's video of his 350
> > >> gallon unit is very informative. We await info and photos of the 500
> > >> gallon unit he is making now.
> > >>
> > >> Bill wrote:
> > >>> the larger the diameter of the TLUD, the greater the chance that the
> > >>> pyrolysis front will not reach the hearth in all areas at the same
> > >>> time. If this happens you risk overheating tha hearth if you wait
> for
> >
> > >>> all the fuel to pyrolyse and burn some of the biochar.
> > >> I completely agree. And when we report on our actual experience,
> > please
> > >> specify the diameter (which is probably more important that the
> > volume).
> > >>
> > >> Diameters:
> > >> 1. A 200 Liter (55 gal) drum or barrel is about 23 inches (58 cm) in
> > >> diameter. And that works rather well in the Jolly Roger Ovens (J-ROs)
> >
> > >> and similar units.
> > >>
> > >> 2. From Bill's video, his unit 350 gallon (over 1000 liter) unit is
> > >> quite tall and has a diameter about the same as at 55 gal drum. It is
> > >> good to see that it works well.
> > >>
> > >> 3. If I remember correctly, Alex's largest unit was 42 inch diameter
> > >> (107 cm) and had problems with uneven descent of the Migratory
> > Pyrolytic
> > >> Front (MPF). That matches well with Bill comment that is quoted
> > above.
> > >>
> > >> So, is Bill's 500 gal unit even taller but still "slender"? And how
> > >> well does it work?
> > >>
> > >> An interesting question is about the possible favorable impact of
> > having
> > >> some of the following changes in the big TLUDs:
> > >>
> > >> A. Impact of a tapering the inside diameter in the lower section. But
> > >> as I think more about that, I have my doubts if it will resolve the
> > >> irregular MPF issue.
> > >>
> > >> B. impact of having sensors around the circumference of the TLUD at
> > >> perhaps 1 meter vertical distances. And if the temperature
> > (indicating
> > >> the MPF) is greater on one side too soon, EITHER
> > >> inject addition primary air via tuyers (nozzels) on the colder sides
> to
> >
> > >> hasten the MPF in those areas, OR
> > >> inject a bit of water into the area of the hot side to slow its
> > movement
> > >> a bit.
> > >>
> > >> With serious char-making devices such as what Bill has, a relatively
> > >> small cost would be the welding of some pipe nipples (each with a
> screw
> >
> > >> on cap) at the appropriate places for the air or water entries (B
> > above)
> > >> and where thermocouples could be inserted to check temperatures
> > >> including in the center of the cylindrical column of fuel.
> > >>
> > >> If anyone tries these ideas, please let us all know you progress and
> > >> results.
> > >>
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > >> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >> Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >>
> > >>> On 5/14/2015 8:20 PM, biocharFIRST . wrote:
> > >>> I don't know how big you can build a TLUD. However about three years
> > >>> ago I built a 350 gallon TLUD that is working out very well, except
> > >>> for the fact that we do not have a use for the sen gas where the
> TLUD
> > >>> is now located at my home. You can see a video at,
> > >>> vhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kfr4NRhJ0s.
> > >>>
> > >>> Currently we have almost completed a 500 gallon TLUD that is
> designed
> > >>> to exhaust all of the sen gas down a tube in the center of the tank
> > >>> so the heat from the gas can easily be captured for various uses.
> > >>> r be uniformly dry, and the larger the diameter of the TLUD, the
> > >>> greater the chance that the pyrolysis front will not reach the
> hearth
> > >>> in all areas at the same time. If this happens you risk overheating
> > >>> tha hearth if you wait for all the fuel to pyrolyse and burn some of
> > >>> the biochar. If you shut off the primary before pyrolysis is
> complete
> >
> > >>> you will get some smoke and some biomass that is not completely
> > >>> pyrolysed.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > >>> <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> AJH >Yes and/or premixing but why does burning rice hulls tend
> > >>> more to the
> > >>> blue flame?
> > >>>
> > >>> Lower volatiles? The carbon/hydrogen ratio is not the same as
> > >>> wood. Maybe
> > >>> that helps.
> > >>>
> > >>> Apparently the reactions can be shifted from CO to H2 by using
> > >>> different
> > >>> catalysts:
> > >>> Crispin
> > >>>
> > >>> From
> > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0141460786900727
> > >>>
> > >>> Catalytic gasification of rice hull and other biomass. The general
> > >>> effect of
> > >>> catalyst.
> > >>>
> > >>> Abstract:
> > >>> Thermochemical decomposition and catalytic conversion of rice hull
> > >>> and some
> > >>> other cellulosic materials in a fluidized bed reactor containing
> > >>> different
> > >>> catalysts as the bed material were studied. The use of catalyst
> > >>> invariably
> > >>> gave gas yields above that of the non-catalyzed gasification
> > >>> process and
> > >>> also changed the product distribution according to the nature of
> > the
> > >>> catalyst. Generally, an acidic catalyst favored the formation of
> > >>> carbon
> > >>> monoxide and olefins while a supported-metal catalyst increased
> > >>> the amounts
> > >>> of hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Nickel catalyst yielded as much as
> > 60%
> > >>> hydrogen at a reaction temperature of 650?C. The gas yield and
> > product
> > >>> distribution are mainly decided by the properties of the catalyst
> > >>> and less
> > >>> by the properties of the biomass.
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Stoves mailing list
> > >>>
> > >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >>>
> > >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >>>
> > >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > >>> site:
> > >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> http://www.ithakajournal.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Stoves mailing list
> > >>>
> > >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>>
> > >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >>>
> > >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Energies Naturals C.B. <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 15:30:37 -0400
> > > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] big TLUD
> > > Message-ID: <COL401-EAS266FA6659A75E99A55105E3B1C20 at phx.gbl>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Dear Rolf
> > >
> > > I have a general rule (which results from empirical testing) which is
> > that
> > > the fuel particle has to be smaller than 1/6th of the diameter of the
> > > chamber. At 6 it is iffy - problems abound with the fire going out and
> > > difficulty igniting, high excess air, poor potential for secondary air
> > > management etc.
> > >
> > > There is an upper limit too but I am not sure where it is. It is less
> > than
> > > 25 and I suspect above 20 is a cause for concern.
> > >
> > > Packing density is an issue but it is an indicator, but 'the issue'.
> > "The
> > > issue" is the superficial and actual velocity of air moving through
> the
> > > system.
> > >
> > > The numbers are influenced by the temperature of the surrounds so it
> is
> > not
> > > as simple as saying 'here are the hard numbers'. When you get to
> mixing
> > > different sizes together you will have to work with the actual air
> flow
> > > rate.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Crispin
> > > .
> > >
> > > Hallo "big TLUDers",
> > >
> > > as I see from the various experiences and comments, the cross section
> of
> > a
> > > big TLUD is to some extent limited.
> > > That means that in order to build a bigger unit, it has to grow by
> > lenght,
> > > which in turn must enhance the resistance to the primary air flow.
> From
> > > Imberts we know that the relation between fuel size and hearth or
> throat
> > is
> > > crucial.
> > > There must be enough space left between the particles to allow for a
> > > adequate air/gas flow.
> > >
> > > My question: Does anyone have a clue on the matter of fuel size in
> TLUDs
> > ?
> > >
> > > Is it possible that larger diameters ask for larger chunks which in
> turn
> > > provide more space between them and ideally spread the upflowing air
> > more
> > > uniformly?
> > >
> > > Rolf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 22:35:24 +0200
> > > From: "scda2 at t-online.de" <scda2 at t-online.de>
> > > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > > Subject: [Stoves] Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 4 photos
> > > Message-ID: <570151302555cf00cccae11.53491204 at email.t-online.de>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort?
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > > just sharing a few experience with my ?mobile adam-retort?
> > > I did test run#5 and I might give up, as it?s too difficult to operate
> > the retort in a smokeless way (burning smoke). And without reduced smoke
> > there is little sense to operate such a unit near saw mills, carpenter
> > shops in suburbs, etc.
> > > What?s stunning me: during syngas operation if volatiles are passing
> > through the unit, heavy volatiles are leaving chimney. Once I close
> > chimney, syngas is overflowing from fire box, and burned syn gas escapes
> > into air in kind clear volatiles. OK, you will say: larger ducts, larger
> > diameters of channels?
> > > But how to get this done with a ?light weight ? unit (~130kg).
> > >
> > > Photos 1: Overflowing of syn gas from fire box when chimney (~500?C)
> > closed. 4th hr of operation.
> > >
> > > Another phenomena, volatiles are leaving chimney kind of clear
> > volatiles, once they get in contact with ambient air- heavy smoke
> > develops.
> > >
> > > Photo2 : 3rd hour of operation. Shortly before large syn gas
> production
> > starts (chimney ~300?C), fire wood was removed shortly after. AGiP drums
> > just serves as a table to hold thermometer. .
> > >
> > > Photo3: big stress on materials (!), of retort is left open until
> > gasification dies, chimney temp rises to ~650?C, Temperature in oil
> drums
> > with wood comes to 600?C also. ( = high quality , high temperature
> > charcoal).
> > >
> > > Efficiency about 30% (dry weight) or ~25% of waste wood in fire box
> > counted. Operation about 5 hours (3hrs drying + 2hrs syn gas). ~110kg of
> > wood dry weight loaded into 2 oil drums, ~35kg of charcoal received.
> ~15kg
> > of waste wood (dry weight) burnt. Cost of retort ~500US$ (?) mass
> > production.
> > >
> > > Fig. 1 Drawing to explain function. (Unit Is tilted 90? for
> > loading/unloading).
> > > 22 (chimney), 23 (opening) not needed
> > > Fire under 1st oil drum (filled with wood) is producing syngas which
> is
> > burned and is heating 2nd oil drum in caskade effect...
> > >
> > > Cheers Chris ADAM
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > /attachments/20150520/f2e9e211/attachment-0007.jpe>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 13:35:37 -0700
> > > From: Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com>
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] big TLUD
> > > Message-ID: <EE6C234A-607E-4C77-BEE8-2119737A8D53 at cruzio.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > >
> > > Dear Crispin, and Stovers,
> > >
> > > Interesting topic. And there must be an optimum and way to measure and
> > determine what this is.
> > >
> > > I?m thinking its air channeling (sections of high air movement) that
> > gives the problem resulting in un-even air front.
> > >
> > > In addition to size of particles. Particles must be of a size able to
> > ignite from radiant heat from neighboring particles. At stove camp they
> > stated a value - something like no more than three times the size of the
> > match(?). And that should apply here I would think. We can start with
> > small particles on top to light and gradually go to larger particles as
> > the flame front moves down? OR does that mean larger particles can be no
> > more than three times the smaller particles so all neighbor particles
> will
> > light. A test of particle distribution and uniformity coefficient might
> be
> > a good test.
> > >
> > > How can we test for channeling?
> > > Perhaps: Have air flowing through the system then add pure CO2 and
> > measure the CO2 increase at the other end. With even flow there should
> be
> > a sharp increase but with channeling it would be a gradual increase?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank Shields
> > > franke at cruzio.com
> > >
> > >
> > >> On May 20, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Dear Rolf
> > >>
> > >> I have a general rule (which results from empirical testing) which is
> > that
> > >> the fuel particle has to be smaller than 1/6th of the diameter of the
> > >> chamber. At 6 it is iffy - problems abound with the fire going out
> and
> > >> difficulty igniting, high excess air, poor potential for secondary
> air
> > >> management etc.
> > >>
> > >> There is an upper limit too but I am not sure where it is. It is less
> > than
> > >> 25 and I suspect above 20 is a cause for concern.
> > >>
> > >> Packing density is an issue but it is an indicator, but 'the issue'.
> > "The
> > >> issue" is the superficial and actual velocity of air moving through
> the
> > >> system.
> > >>
> > >> The numbers are influenced by the temperature of the surrounds so it
> is
> > not
> > >> as simple as saying 'here are the hard numbers'. When you get to
> > mixing
> > >> different sizes together you will have to work with the actual air
> flow
> > >> rate.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> Crispin
> > >> .
> > >>
> > >> Hallo "big TLUDers",
> > >>
> > >> as I see from the various experiences and comments, the cross section
> > of a
> > >> big TLUD is to some extent limited.
> > >> That means that in order to build a bigger unit, it has to grow by
> > lenght,
> > >> which in turn must enhance the resistance to the primary air flow.
> From
> > >> Imberts we know that the relation between fuel size and hearth or
> > throat is
> > >> crucial.
> > >> There must be enough space left between the particles to allow for a
> > >> adequate air/gas flow.
> > >>
> > >> My question: Does anyone have a clue on the matter of fuel size in
> > TLUDs ?
> > >>
> > >> Is it possible that larger diameters ask for larger chunks which in
> > turn
> > >> provide more space between them and ideally spread the upflowing air
> > more
> > >> uniformly?
> > >>
> > >> Rolf
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Stoves mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >>
> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 13:43:05 -0700
> > > From: Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com>
> > > To: "scda2 at t-online.de" <scda2 at t-online.de>, Discussion of biomass
> > > cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 4 photos
> > > Message-ID: <156C8F05-1CBC-4F8A-8DA0-BCD36F89478D at cruzio.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > >
> > > I?m wondering if picture #2 is more water vapor than smoke? An in lab
> > experiment i did produced the same looking ?smoke? and clouded the room
> > but I later thought it water vapor.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank Shields
> > > franke at cruzio.com
> > >
> > >
> > >> On May 20, 2015, at 1:35 PM, scda2 at t-online.de wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort?
> > >>
> > >> Dear All,
> > >> just sharing a few experience with my ?mobile adam-retort?
> > >> I did test run#5 and I might give up, as it?s too difficult to
> operate
> > the retort in a smokeless way (burning smoke). And without reduced smoke
> > there is little sense to operate such a unit near saw mills, carpenter
> > shops in suburbs, etc.
> > >> What?s stunning me: during syngas operation if volatiles are passing
> > through the unit, heavy volatiles are leaving chimney. Once I close
> > chimney, syngas is overflowing from fire box, and burned syn gas escapes
> > into air in kind clear volatiles. OK, you will say: larger ducts, larger
> > diameters of channels?
> > >> But how to get this done with a ?light weight ? unit (~130kg).
> > >>
> > >> Photos 1: Overflowing of syn gas from fire box when chimney (~500?C)
> > closed. 4th hr of operation.
> > >>
> > >> Another phenomena, volatiles are leaving chimney kind of clear
> > volatiles, once they get in contact with ambient air- heavy smoke
> > develops.
> > >>
> > >> Photo2 : 3rd hour of operation. Shortly before large syn gas
> production
> > starts (chimney ~300?C), fire wood was removed shortly after. AGiP drums
> > just serves as a table to hold thermometer. .
> > >>
> > >> Photo3: big stress on materials (!), of retort is left open until
> > gasification dies, chimney temp rises to ~650?C, Temperature in oil
> drums
> > with wood comes to 600?C also. ( = high quality , high temperature
> > charcoal).
> > >>
> > >> Efficiency about 30% (dry weight) or ~25% of waste wood in fire box
> > counted. Operation about 5 hours (3hrs drying + 2hrs syn gas). ~110kg of
> > wood dry weight loaded into 2 oil drums, ~35kg of charcoal received.
> ~15kg
> > of waste wood (dry weight) burnt. Cost of retort ~500US$ (?) mass
> > production.
> > >>
> > >> Fig. 1 Drawing to explain function. (Unit Is tilted 90? for
> > loading/unloading).
> > >> 22 (chimney), 23 (opening) not needed
> > >> Fire under 1st oil drum (filled with wood) is producing syngas which
> is
> > burned and is heating 2nd oil drum in caskade effect...
> > >>
> > >> Cheers Chris ADAM<IMG_5050 overflow.JPG><IMG_5023
> smoke1.JPG><IMG_5039
> > glow.JPG><detail drawing1
> > mobile.JPG>_______________________________________________
> > >> Stoves mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >>
> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 6
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:03:41 -0500
> > > From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] big TLUD
> > > Message-ID: <555CF6AD.5070501 at ilstu.edu>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> > >
> > > Rolf,
> > >
> > > Fuel size is related to the dwell-time (time the fuel is exposed to
> the
> > > heat). Tom Reed says it takes about one hour of exposure to pyrolyze
> > > through about one inch (2.5 cm) of wood FROM ONE SIDE. So think of
> > > radius of the fuel or its smallest dimension.
> > >
> > > And the TLUD height (which relates to the duration of the operation)
> > > will give some indication of the available time.
> > >
> > > 1. So, you could have a 2 inch smallest-dimension piece of fuel near
> > > the top of the fuel pile in a one hour of operation TLUD. But the same
> >
> > > piece of wood if inserted vertically would have an hour of heat at the
> > > top but less than 30 minutes or even only 15 minutes for the end that
> is
> >
> > > near the bottom. The bottom part will be off-gasing (giving smoke) if
> > > it is removed when the majority of the pyrolysis has completed.
> > > Waiting for that piece to pyrolyze in a functioning unit will result
> in
> > > the loss of char that is burning to give the heat for pyrolysis.
> > >
> > > Vertical pieces of wood work very well, but it is good to have a
> bottom
> > > layer of smaller pieces.
> > >
> > > 2. The other big variable is the control of the two air supplies. The
> > > ability to SHUT DOWN the primary air is extremely important, and
> widely
> > > overlooked. Ideally, the MPF (Migratory Pyrolytic Front) will descend
> > > rather uniformly. But if it does not (and this problem increases in
> > > likelihood in larger TLUDs), pyrolysis and char making can be kept
> > > somewhat under control if the primary air is severely restricted. Keep
> > > the HEAT (not the fire itself) inside the fuel chamber and the
> off-gases
> >
> > > will be created, the fire at the top (burning the gases) can be
> > > sustained and also controlled for minimal smoke even though the fire
> > > inside the TLUD has dropped to the bottom of the fuel chamber. Not a
> > > perfect run cycle, but probably some reasonable char production
> > > (compared with letting the fire race away inside the fuel chamber).
> > >
> > > 3. The ability to supplement (increase) the air flows (both of them,
> > > but separately) is a major factor for control and for reducing the
> > > dependence on uniformity of fuel sizes. Yesterday, in a TLUD of two
> > > small barrels, the final stages of a 45 minute operation had too much
> > > pyrolysis occurring, giving lots of flames (shooting 4 inches above
> the
> > > 3 foot chimney) and some visible black smoke. Instead of cutting back
> > > the primary air, I used a portable blower (with a 12 V DC motorcycle
> > > battery) to increase only the secondary air, and the smokiness
> > > disappeared and the flames were only half way up the chimney.
> > >
> > > NOTE: This gave great heat supply, but for a shorter time period than
> > > if I had cut back on the primary air (giving more time for pyrolysis).
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > >> On 5/20/2015 2:30 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> > >> Dear Rolf
> > >>
> > >> I have a general rule (which results from empirical testing) which is
> > that
> > >> the fuel particle has to be smaller than 1/6th of the diameter of the
> > >> chamber. At 6 it is iffy - problems abound with the fire going out
> and
> > >> difficulty igniting, high excess air, poor potential for secondary
> air
> > >> management etc.
> > >>
> > >> There is an upper limit too but I am not sure where it is. It is less
> > than
> > >> 25 and I suspect above 20 is a cause for concern.
> > >>
> > >> Packing density is an issue but it is an indicator, but 'the issue'.
> > "The
> > >> issue" is the superficial and actual velocity of air moving through
> the
> > >> system.
> > >>
> > >> The numbers are influenced by the temperature of the surrounds so it
> is
> > not
> > >> as simple as saying 'here are the hard numbers'. When you get to
> > mixing
> > >> different sizes together you will have to work with the actual air
> flow
> > >> rate.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> Crispin
> > >> .
> > >>
> > >> Hallo "big TLUDers",
> > >>
> > >> as I see from the various experiences and comments, the cross section
> > of a
> > >> big TLUD is to some extent limited.
> > >> That means that in order to build a bigger unit, it has to grow by
> > lenght,
> > >> which in turn must enhance the resistance to the primary air flow.
> From
> > >> Imberts we know that the relation between fuel size and hearth or
> > throat is
> > >> crucial.
> > >> There must be enough space left between the particles to allow for a
> > >> adequate air/gas flow.
> > >>
> > >> My question: Does anyone have a clue on the matter of fuel size in
> > TLUDs ?
> > >>
> > >> Is it possible that larger diameters ask for larger chunks which in
> > turn
> > >> provide more space between them and ideally spread the upflowing air
> > more
> > >> uniformly?
> > >>
> > >> Rolf
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Stoves mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >>
> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> > site:
> > >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 23:13:07 +0200
> > > From: "scda2 at t-online.de" <scda2 at t-online.de>
> > > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > > Subject: [Stoves] Giving up? ?mobile adam-retort? 3 additional
> > > drawings
> > > Message-ID: <491227133555cf8e32dbc15.21279557 at email.t-online.de>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > >
> > > If someone wants to go into it (additional drawings)
> > >
> > > Fig.2 front view
> > > Fig.3 side view
> > > Fig.4 top view
> > >
> > > Part list:
> > >
> > > List of Reference:
> > >
> > > 1, 2, one, two or more containers
> > > 3, base plate
> > > 4, closure
> > > 5, Low chamber-frame
> > > 6, fireplace
> > > 7, passage opening
> > > 8 sheet metal strip
> > > 9, channel
> > > 10, chimney pipe
> > > 11, upper Case
> > > 12, frame for unrolling
> > > 13, quarter-circular rounding
> > > 14, pivot point
> > > 15, tilt direction
> > > 16, opening underside container
> > > 17, smoke-burning zone by secondary air
> > > 18, pipe to connect the flue gases between modules SKiP
> > > 19, passage to connect the secondary air between modules SKiP
> > > 20, passage to connect the chimney gases in the upper case between
> > modules SKiP
> > > 21, passage opening for modular design SKiP
> > > 22, chimney pipe with Bye-pass function and closing SKiP
> > > 23, passage opening with bye-pass function and closure SKiP
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > /attachments/20150520/5c9379ac/attachment.jpg>
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > /attachments/20150520/5c9379ac/attachment-0001.jpg>
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
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> > /attachments/20150520/5c9379ac/attachment-0002.jpg>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> > >
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 19
> > > **************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:15:11 +0000
> > From: "Engelke, Courtenay D (DCO/IEPS)" <engelkecd at mcc.gov>
> > To: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> > Message-ID:
> >
> >
> <BL2PR09MB0013DE44F336FE45375538CABC30 at BL2PR09MB001.namprd09.prod.outlook.
> > com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
> >
> > Please find links below to 1) a Partnership for Clean Indoor
> Air-sponsored
> > webinar and 2) independent impact evaluation associated with the
> > Millennium Challenge Corporation-funded stoves activity in Mongolia
> which
> > was successful in replacing over 100,000 stoves in Ulaanbaatar in less
> > than 3 years.
> >
> >
> http://www.pciaonline.org/webinars/Improved_Heating_Stoves_for_Air_Polluti
> > on_Reduction_in_Mongolia
> >
> > http://data.mcc.gov/evaluations/index.php/catalog/133
> >
> > I would be happy to answer any questions and/or to provide additional
> > information.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Courtenay Engelke
> > Millennium Challenge Corporation
> > Washington, DC
> >
> > From: Leslie Cordes
> > <lcordes at cleancookstoves.org<mailto:lcordes at cleancookstoves.org>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:30 AM
> > To:
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>;
> > Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> >
> >
> > Paul - it is incorrect that the Alliance does not cover coal fueled
> > cookstoves. In fact, we have a comprehensive clean cookstoves program in
> > China, and Mongolia has been a long-standing national partner of the
> > Alliance. Additionally, a representative of the WB funded program spoke
> > about their program at the last Forum in Cambodia? and we have featured
> > articles about the MCC-UNEP-LBL program in Mongolia in the Alliance's
> > newsletters. I would be happy to pass along your note to the Bank and
> MCC
> > program managers
> >
> > Best regards, Leslie
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> > From: Paul Anderson
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:17 AM
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> >
> >
> > Crispin and all,
> >
> > Your message is very useful about several important points:
> >
> > 1. Important heating-stove and air quality work is being done in
> > Mongolia. Congratulations to all who are involved. Seems the World
> > Bank is the big backer.
> >
> > 2. Information flow about these efforts is horrible. Our ONLY source of
> > info has been Crispin. THANKS!!!! Otherwise, this is almost off of
> > the radar for Stoves discussions openly on the Internet. I searched for
> > Ulaanbaatar Clean Air Project (UB-CAP)
> > and saw some reports that were more about goals, etc. I did not do a
> > thorough search. Please somebody check fully and confirm or correct me
> > and guide us to the data. But if I am correct, this lack of knowledge is
> > a MAJOR deficiency in our networking.
> >
> > Very interesting that even Crispin (an adviser to the project, but about
> > emissions and evidently not about stove design / manufacturing) does not
> > have clear photos / tech drawings / and other info about the stoves
> > themselves.
> >
> > 3. The fuel is wet lignite with over 50% volatiles. FANTASTIC!!! TLUD
> > stoves thrive on getting volatiles released from solid fuel, and THEN do
> > the clean burning a few centimeters away!!!!
> >
> > 4. The stoves are heavy (high mass which is good for heating-stoves)
> with
> > cast iron and ceramic (which is great for withstanding the higher
> > temperatures of burning some (maybe much or all) of the final carbon
> > (similar to coking coal once the volatiles are gone) at relatively high
> > temperatures for the "typical sheet-metal TLUD stoves" for tropical
> > climates.
> >
> > 5. The GACC and the EPA programs about cookstoves do not (I believe)
> > include COAL-burning stoves. This needs to be corrected. I certainly
> > hope it is resolved well before the November GACC Forum in Ghana. The
> > success in Mongolia should be well documented and well disseminated.
> >
> > Note: Fossil fuels increase the final CO2 in the atmosphere, but that
> > CO2 is "acceptable" in some circles, such as by those who promote LPG,
> > which is extremely clean burning (but is carbon positive). Allowing for
> > that, the issue of CLEAN fuel is about other emissions (black carbon,
> > methane, Particulate Matter PM, CO etc.). Therefore, there are NO DIRTY
> > FUELS, but only DIRTY STOVES that cannot burn the fuels well. Kerosene
> > (parafin) dripped into a TLUD or Rocket or other stove will give a dirty
> > fire. That is a user error, not a stove error. Countless examples could
> > be given of inappropriate burning of fuels. But what is important is
> > that any one type of fuel can be cleanly burned in at least ONE design
> of
> > stove.
> >
> > Related: Even if we could have one of the Mongolian TLUD stoves
> > available for viewing and testing, most certainly the same fuel (high
> > volatile wet lignite) would be needed for any appropriate testing of the
> > stove. Different types of coal would probably not burn as cleanly in
> > that stove.
> >
> > 6. We (the collective "we the Stovers") could certainly benefit from
> > further information from Mongolia. I suspect that a Chinese-speaking
> > American engineer-type person could greatly assist with this. I am
> > wondering how much the Mongolian advancement is already being introduced
> > into northern China. Or is there a "not invented here" barrier to the
> > spread of the progress?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> >
> > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >
> > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >
> > Website: www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>
> > On 5/19/2015 12:22 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > Actually I am not aware of the links to the stoves ? I just don?t deal
> > with that side the equation. Um?how about looking on line for
> Ulaanbaatar
> > Clean Air Project (UB-CAP) and see if they have something on their
> > website. It is likely to be in Mongolian which is written with a Russian
> > script so it will be hard to follow.
> >
> > Most of the stove that pass are some form of TLUD gasifier. At the
> moment
> > only two people are making pretty good cross draft stoves. One is a
> direct
> > reproduction of the GTZ7 which can be extremely clean. I recall it has
> > negative PM emissions as early as 12 minutes after ignition.
> >
> > The fuel is wet lignite. I would not describe it as ?low quality? which
> I
> > found out only means it has volatiles above 20% of dry mass. I would not
> > describe it as ?low? quality but it has >50% volatiles! I think it is
> the
> > best coal I have ever seen in the world. It is easy to light and can
> burn
> > extremely cleanly shortly after ignition if the combustion environment
> is
> > right. Obviously several companies have it right. If the coal was made
> > into pellets it would be even cleaner burning. They are still burning
> lump
> > coal ?as it arrives?. Big pieces are broken up of course.
> >
> > The promoted stoves run from I think $80 to $270. Most are cast iron
> with
> > ceramic interiors. They have to have a two year guarantee.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> > Crispin,
> >
> > Please direct us to info including photos about the Mongolian stove for
> > heating. I think you have previously stated that it is burning low-grade
> > coal, right? And it is some variation of a gasifier, correct? And at
> > what cost per stove?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> >
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> >
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> >
> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> >
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > /attachments/20150519/233edd8b/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:44:35 -0400
> > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> > Message-ID: <COL401-EAS6968B9865BD1A672B1390DB1CF0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
> >
> > Dear Courtenay
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the support and links. I presume you saw the chart of ambient
> > PM2.5 released last week. If you have means to do so, can you confirm
> that
> > this is the first time a major city has cleaned up its air without
> > changing
> > fuels? I would like to be able to say that with more confidence. I have
> > only
> > read that ?it has never been done before? and set that as a personal
> > target
> > 7 years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> > The reduction asked for (the project target) in 2007 from the WB was 30%
> > from the stove itself, with the expectation that this would be achieved
> by
> > reducing fuel consumption, an expectation rooted ultimately in the
> belief
> > that the smoke was an inherent property of the coal, not the coal+stove
> > combination. On that score the project has made an excellent
> demonstration
> > of what is possible. It is not unusual to see tests with a 98% reduction
> > against the baseline.
> >
> >
> >
> > >From the initial 30% reduction target, now no stove is accepted into
> the
> > programme unless it has reduced PM by more than 90%. As MCC provided
> about
> > 60% of the funding to date I think it would be good to have on record
> that
> > this is the first time the air quality has been improved so much ?
> better
> > than Berkeley?s best case Scenario 2 ? with only a change in the stoves.
> > If
> > it is true, it should be on MCC?s list of signal achievements.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is clear from design experiment results that we are not reaching the
> > limits yet on CO and PM reduction, or thermal efficiency. The stove
> > development centre will open soon and have the capacity to develop and
> > test
> > water heating stoves, small boilers both high and low pressure, and
> > regular
> > home and Ger stoves. It is expected that as a result of their work,
> > further
> > improvement in stove performance will be seen in the coming years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Engelke, Courtenay D (DCO/IEPS)
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:15
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> >
> >
> >
> > Please find links below to 1) a Partnership for Clean Indoor
> Air-sponsored
> > webinar and 2) independent impact evaluation associated with the
> > Millennium
> > Challenge Corporation-funded stoves activity in Mongolia which was
> > successful in replacing over 100,000 stoves in Ulaanbaatar in less than
> 3
> > years.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.pciaonline.org/webinars/Improved_Heating_Stoves_for_Air_Polluti
> > on
> > _Reduction_in_Mongolia
> >
> >
> >
> > http://data.mcc.gov/evaluations/index.php/catalog/133
> >
> >
> >
> > I would be happy to answer any questions and/or to provide additional
> > information.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Courtenay Engelke
> >
> > Millennium Challenge Corporation
> >
> > Washington, DC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Leslie Cordes <lcordes at cleancookstoves.org
> > <mailto:lcordes at cleancookstoves.org> >
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:30 AM
> >
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > ; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul - it is incorrect that the Alliance does not cover coal fueled
> > cookstoves. In fact, we have a comprehensive clean cookstoves program in
> > China, and Mongolia has been a long-standing national partner of the
> > Alliance. Additionally, a representative of the WB funded program spoke
> > about their program at the last Forum in Cambodia? and we have featured
> > articles about the MCC-UNEP-LBL program in Mongolia in the Alliance's
> > newsletters. I would be happy to pass along your note to the Bank and
> MCC
> > program managers
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards, Leslie
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> >
> >
> > From: Paul Anderson
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:17 AM
> >
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >
> > Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Mongolian stove for heating
> >
> >
> >
> > Crispin and all,
> >
> > Your message is very useful about several important points:
> >
> > 1. Important heating-stove and air quality work is being done in
> > Mongolia.
> > Congratulations to all who are involved. Seems the World Bank is the big
> > backer.
> >
> > 2. Information flow about these efforts is horrible. Our ONLY source of
> > info has been Crispin. THANKS!!!! Otherwise, this is almost off of
> > the
> > radar for Stoves discussions openly on the Internet. I searched for
> >
> > Ulaanbaatar Clean Air Project (UB-CAP)
> >
> > and saw some reports that were more about goals, etc. I did not do a
> > thorough search. Please somebody check fully and confirm or correct me
> > and guide us to the data. But if I am correct, this lack of knowledge is
> > a
> > MAJOR deficiency in our networking.
> >
> > Very interesting that even Crispin (an adviser to the project, but about
> > emissions and evidently not about stove design / manufacturing) does not
> > have clear photos / tech drawings / and other info about the stoves
> > themselves.
> >
> > 3. The fuel is wet lignite with over 50% volatiles. FANTASTIC!!! TLUD
> > stoves thrive on getting volatiles released from solid fuel, and THEN do
> > the
> > clean burning a few centimeters away!!!!
> >
> > 4. The stoves are heavy (high mass which is good for heating-stoves)
> with
> > cast iron and ceramic (which is great for withstanding the higher
> > temperatures of burning some (maybe much or all) of the final carbon
> > (similar to coking coal once the volatiles are gone) at relatively high
> > temperatures for the "typical sheet-metal TLUD stoves" for tropical
> > climates.
> >
> > 5. The GACC and the EPA programs about cookstoves do not (I believe)
> > include COAL-burning stoves. This needs to be corrected. I certainly
> > hope it is resolved well before the November GACC Forum in Ghana. The
> > success in Mongolia should be well documented and well disseminated.
> >
> > Note: Fossil fuels increase the final CO2 in the atmosphere, but that
> > CO2
> > is "acceptable" in some circles, such as by those who promote LPG, which
> > is
> > extremely clean burning (but is carbon positive). Allowing for that, the
> > issue of CLEAN fuel is about other emissions (black carbon, methane,
> > Particulate Matter PM, CO etc.). Therefore, there are NO DIRTY FUELS,
> > but
> > only DIRTY STOVES that cannot burn the fuels well. Kerosene (parafin)
> > dripped into a TLUD or Rocket or other stove will give a dirty fire.
> That
> > is a user error, not a stove error. Countless examples could be given of
> > inappropriate burning of fuels. But what is important is that any one
> > type
> > of fuel can be cleanly burned in at least ONE design of stove.
> >
> > Related: Even if we could have one of the Mongolian TLUD stoves
> > available
> > for viewing and testing, most certainly the same fuel (high volatile wet
> > lignite) would be needed for any appropriate testing of the stove.
> > Different types of coal would probably not burn as cleanly in that
> stove.
> >
> > 6. We (the collective "we the Stovers") could certainly benefit from
> > further information from Mongolia. I suspect that a Chinese-speaking
> > American engineer-type person could greatly assist with this. I am
> > wondering how much the Mongolian advancement is already being introduced
> > into northern China. Or is there a "not invented here" barrier to the
> > spread of the progress?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> >
> > On 5/19/2015 12:22 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> >
> > Dear Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually I am not aware of the links to the stoves ? I just don?t deal
> > with
> > that side the equation. Um?how about looking on line for Ulaanbaatar
> Clean
> > Air Project (UB-CAP) and see if they have something on their website. It
> > is
> > likely to be in Mongolian which is written with a Russian script so it
> > will
> > be hard to follow.
> >
> >
> >
> > Most of the stove that pass are some form of TLUD gasifier. At the
> moment
> > only two people are making pretty good cross draft stoves. One is a
> direct
> > reproduction of the GTZ7 which can be extremely clean. I recall it has
> > negative PM emissions as early as 12 minutes after ignition.
> >
> >
> >
> > The fuel is wet lignite. I would not describe it as ?low quality? which
> I
> > found out only means it has volatiles above 20% of dry mass. I would not
> > describe it as ?low? quality but it has >50% volatiles! I think it is
> the
> > best coal I have ever seen in the world. It is easy to light and can
> burn
> > extremely cleanly shortly after ignition if the combustion environment
> is
> > right. Obviously several companies have it right. If the coal was made
> > into
> > pellets it would be even cleaner burning. They are still burning lump
> coal
> > ?as it arrives?. Big pieces are broken up of course.
> >
> >
> >
> > The promoted stoves run from I think $80 to $270. Most are cast iron
> with
> > ceramic interiors. They have to have a two year guarantee.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Crispin,
> >
> > Please direct us to info including photos about the Mongolian stove for
> > heating. I think you have previously stated that it is burning low-grade
> > coal, right? And it is some variation of a gasifier, correct? And at
> > what cost per stove?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts
> > .org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > /attachments/20150523/1630cf94/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> > ts.org
> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 22
> > **************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> ts.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylis
> ts.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
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> ------------------------------
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> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
> **************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 11:38:37 -0400
> From: Jock Gill <jock at jockgill.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] examples of biochar stoves in micro enterprise?
> Message-ID: <C7DD62BA-BC2A-4DA3-BF31-AAF3AF9B7787 at jockgill.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All,
>
> A friend in the State Department writes:
>
> "Talking to people about both climate change and cookstoves. Any good,
> well documented, examples of people using biochar stoves inmicro enterprise
> applications?"
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jock
>
> Jock Gill
> P. O. Box 3
> Peacham, VT 05862
>
> google.com/+JockGill
>
> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:29 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Stoves and biofuels network <Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] VERY interesting article in LOW-TECH MAGAZINE:
> Well-Tended Fires Outperform Modern Cooking Stoves
> Message-ID: <55689335.3090501 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>
> Stovers,
>
> I highly recommend everyone see this article on
> > Well-Tended Fires Outperform Modern Cooking Stoves
>
> http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-cooking-stoves.html
>
>
> Very well done, with references, and providing some awesome quotations for
> future
> articles by others.
>
> 1.
> > In fact, an electric cooking stove is only half as efficient as a
> > well-tended
> > open fire, while a gas hob is only half as effective as a biomass
> > rocket stove.
> > And even though indoor air pollution is less of an issue with modern
> > cooking stoves,
> > research indicates that pollution levels in western kitchens can be
> > surprisingly high.
>
> 2.
> > Improved biomass stoves have double or triple the thermal efficiency
> > of modern
> > electric or gas cooking stoves.
>
> 3. Best thermal efficiency (out of 9 stove types) is 45% accomplished by
> Woodgas stove. (on chart).
>
> 4. It is disappointing that the article repeats data from a 2008 report
> that is now superceeded, and
> cites the 2012 PCIA report of data collected by Aprovecho 7 to 8 years
> earlier (but publication delayed).
>
> I hope that many Stovers will read this article from Low-Tech Magazine and
> make comments.
>
> I am sending a separate message (with different Subject line) about delays
> in finding this
> article (almost one year after publication) so that the two Subjects have
> different threads of discussion.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 11:26:37 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Stoves and biofuels network <Stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] About finding good publications on Stoves
> Message-ID: <5568933D.6050206 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Stovers,
>
> About finding good publications: It seems that the very good article
> cited in my
> previous message was published
> about a year ago. I did not see it then. I do not recall anyone
> commenting about
> it on the Stoves Listserv. By fortunate chance, a friend who is not
> subscribed to
> the Stoves Listserv found the article and sent the link to me. So....
>
> 1. Am I just slow and out of the loop for discussing this item?
>
> 2. Was this item already placed in some resource base (such as the Stove
> Website)
> that I am not adequately reviewing? (Quite possible; if so then that is
> embarrassing; but I
> would still like to know my deficiencies.)
>
> 3. Are others seeing this and other important items and assuming everyone
> else is
> seeing them, so they do not bother to comment on it?
>
> 4. Am I sending links that actually are not of much interest to other
> Stovers?
>
> 5. Are the authors and publishers of this and other important
> Stoves-related articles
> unaware of the Stoves Listserv and other means of getting people to read
> their work?
>
> 6. Am I (and others) so busy with our own work that we pay a price of not
> knowing
> what others are doing?
>
> 7. I wonder how much else is out there that I (we?) are overlooking.
>
> Be sure to read the article. But reply to my comments above with the
> Subject line "About finding....".
>
> Paul
>
> --
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
> **************************************
>
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