[Stoves] Torrified Pellets

Ronald Hongsermeier rwhongser at web.de
Mon May 25 10:31:10 MDT 2015


Dear Dean,

Here you say that the ladies observed no statistically relevant results 
(in spite of trying, which seems to me a contradiction of scientific 
method: you try hard only to observe parametric, repeatable data and 
report how it either confirms or contradicts predicted results, not 
strive for results themselves. A designer who has an objective for a 
stove is hoping that a feature included in the design will achieve a 
controlled effect that will tweak some parameter of performance, but 
testing is just trying to report.) But then further down you repeatedly 
state that fuel preparation is so important: "With biomass the 
preparation including recipe, drying, pellet size, etc. makes a big 
difference in emissions when trying to get down to the very low levels 
needed to protect health." This is much too simple.
A stove will have design features that determine whether, with a 
particular fuel (with variables: contained moisture, contained minerals, 
contained biological composition, granularity, etc.) all of that evil 
smoke can be combusted or not -- once the primary air is done doing two 
things: providing it with O2 and moving by it and thereby cooling the 
fuel and the resultant smoke to a degree. It's very important to 
understand that enough _excess_ primary air will cool both the fuel and 
the smoke which migrates with it further through the stove to such a 
lower temperature, that the introduction of secondary air will no longer 
sustain complete combustion. When there is no complete combustion 
everything left over is bad one way or another, but naturally there are 
degrees of incomplete combustion.

I see that you have responded to Alex on a question of his while I was 
writing this, but I'll try to maintain thread coherency by asking a 
follow-up question there.
regards,
Ron





On 25.05.2015 16:49, Dean Still wrote:
> Dear Frank,
>
> They tried but the results did not achieve statistical significance.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com 
> <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Dean,
>
>
>     Did the three women interns doing the study of types of fuels and
>     their corresponding combustion qualities come up with a final
>     report? or planning to do so?
>
>     I would be very interested in seeing this if it becomes available.
>     I think this very important information as a precursor to
>     developing a series of tests designed to determine if a fuel is
>     suitable for a specific stove or predicting problems when using.
>     All needed for BOX 1 of the six box system.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Frank
>
>
>     Frank Shields
>     franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>
>
>>     On May 24, 2015, at 2:35 PM, alex english <aenglish444 at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:aenglish444 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Crispin,
>>     Here;
>>     http://me.queensu.ca/People/Pollard/
>>     Alex
>>
>>     On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>>     <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Alex
>>
>>
>>         Please put me in touch with the Queens Prof. I would like to
>>         discuss fuel particle shape. I have a long term plan to make
>>         the heating stoves run on them. The long term solution to
>>         zero PM stoves.
>>
>>         Thanks
>>         Crispin
>>
>>         Crispin,
>>         A prof I know at Queens U. wants to make torrified sphere
>>         pellets that can be pumped with water through pipelines, then
>>         separated.
>>         A scalable biomass energy concept.
>>
>>         My comment to Dean related to the only combustion
>>         characteristic that would be different  with torrified
>>         pellets from plane old wood pellets.
>>         Flammability limits that I could test in my premix burner
>>         TLUD.  As Ronald has already stated, differences I too doubt
>>         would show up in other diffusion TLUDs.
>>
>>         The fuel matters, the stove matters, the price matters, the
>>         meal/task matters, got it. I won't blame or credit the fuel
>>         alone, but charcoal really is special :)
>>
>>         Alex
>>
>>         On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>>         <crispinpigott at outlook.com
>>         <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Dear Alex
>>
>>             The major reason to torrefy wood seems to be that it
>>             stops absorbing moisture (mostly) and it weighs less per
>>             MJ. The EU is importing a lot of pellets on this basis.
>>             The UK has a power station fired by them.
>>
>>             Regards
>>
>>             Crispin
>>
>>             *From:*Stoves
>>             [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>] *On
>>             Behalf Of *alex english
>>             *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2015 14:18
>>             *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>             *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Torrified Pellets
>>
>>             Torrified wood has most of it's volatiles.  I would
>>             expect the gases to have a higher CV and wider range of
>>             flame stability when used in a premix burner. Just
>>             guessing this has no relevance to cooking stoves.
>>             Dean, what is the range, cat pee best to worst PM
>>             emissions, that you have measured from any and all tluds
>>             when burning dry wood pellets?
>>             Alex
>>
>>             On 2015-05-24 1:53 PM, "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com
>>             <mailto:deankstill at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                 Dear Ronald,
>>
>>                 Thanks for your helpful comments. Charcoal without
>>                 remaining wood in it doesn't make smoke but, of
>>                 course, wood really likes to smoke. With biomass the
>>                 preparation including recipe, drying, pellet size,
>>                 etc. makes a big difference in emissions when trying
>>                 to get down to the very low levels needed to protect
>>                 health. I'm making some torrified pellets and will
>>                 report back after testing under the hood.
>>
>>                 All Best,
>>
>>                 Dean
>>
>>                 On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier
>>                 <rwhongser at web.de <mailto:rwhongser at web.de>> wrote:
>>
>>                     Dear Dean,
>>                     I may seem like I'm harping here, but now that
>>                     you've said a bit more, you've mentioned a couple
>>                     of factors that I have noticed in my limited
>>                     experience without a hood and therefore without
>>                     concrete parametric analysis, but for which I can
>>                     give some postulates.
>>
>>                     1. The wood-gas stove in design mode depends on a
>>                     uniform fuel "chunk-size" which promotes a level
>>                     "pyrolysis" front(planar) migrating towards the
>>                     bottom of the stove. If that plane is broken by
>>                     dis-uniformity in the fuel or overly large gaps
>>                     between the fuel pieces, you will get a spot drop
>>                     in temperature along with glowing fuel which will
>>                     migrate unevenly towards the bottom of the stove,
>>                     breaking the pyrolysis front and sometimes
>>                     dropping the mean temp inside the burning chamber
>>                     such that the rising wood gas will no longer be
>>                     close enough to critical temp that the onset of
>>                     2nd-ary air will ignite it.
>>
>>                     2. 1. would be consistent with the bark
>>                     observation. Bark generally has lots more
>>                     minerals and less energy per unit mass. Did
>>                     you/they assure dryness level of the bark? Were
>>                     the pieces between (cross-section/10-20) of the
>>                     stoves throat? Do you mean pellets from
>>                     eucalyptus wood or when eucalyptus oil is poured
>>                     on the fuel? Off the shelf kerosin burners here
>>                     in germany are strictly regulated as to what you
>>                     may or may not burn in them. If it is smoking it
>>                     is either wrong fuel, design flaw or user error.
>>
>>                     3. Pellets pack closely, so if they are smoking,
>>                     usually the problem can be fixed by either
>>                     turning up the fan a bit or putting some chimney
>>                     length between the secondary air and the pan to
>>                     increase the draw. (i.e., the primary air is
>>                     probably not of sufficient pressure to deliver
>>                     enough O2 to the pyrolysis front to keep it hot
>>                     enough such that it will ignite upon contact with
>>                     the secondary air.)
>>
>>                     4. Because torrefied pellets are partially
>>                     reacted, they may be somewhat less dense and
>>                     especially because the ends will be cleaner, they
>>                     may not resist airflow as much, which may help
>>                     somewhat with 3. above. I would expect them to
>>                     act very similar to dry pellets, except for the
>>                     difference in density.
>>
>>                     regards,
>>                     Ronald von Aftermidnighttimeforantibiotics (and bed)
>>
>>
>>
>>                     On 23.05.2015 23:49, Dean Still wrote:
>>
>>                         Dear Ron,
>>
>>                         We had three women interns here at the
>>                         research center for a summer who found
>>                         cleaner burning recipes for the TLUDs
>>                         gathered from the surrounding forest. Some
>>                         things like bark make smoke, etc.
>>
>>                         Many pellets smoke when using eucalyptus,
>>                         etc. Different mixtures of kerosene make more
>>                         or less smoke in off the shelf stoves.
>>
>>                         I'm wondering if torrified pellets will burn
>>                         cleaner than normal pellets.
>>
>>                         Best,
>>
>>                         Dean
>>
>>                         On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Ronald
>>                         Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de
>>                         <mailto:rwhongser at web.de>> wrote:
>>
>>                             Hi Dean,
>>                             I remember that there was a proposed
>>                             university program (W. Virginia or the
>>                             Carolinas??) In view of the deaths(not
>>                             _many_ but tragic) that have taken place
>>                             due to off-loading of pellets at some
>>                             European ports (CO in the hold) The
>>                             torrefaction could lead to a more inert
>>                             fuel. That's hopeful speculation on my
>>                             part however. You would be transporting
>>                             some less bound water and the energy
>>                             density is better than regular pellets in
>>                             addition to the lack of liquid or vapor
>>                             H2O absorption issue mentioned before--
>>                             these would lend efficiencies in the
>>                             logistics end of things and an even more
>>                             uniform fuel than regular pellets, which
>>                             tend to absorb quite a  bit of water here
>>                             in the damp winter weather...
>>                             I have to admit that I'm a bit puzzled as
>>                             to what you mean by cleaner fuel recipes.
>>                             What specific pollutant are you
>>                             interested in or are you talking about
>>                             particulate?
>>                             If you aren't choking the burn by putting
>>                             the pot too close, you should be getting
>>                             a very clean burn with a TLUD?!?
>>
>>                             regards,
>>                             Ron
>>
>>                             On 23.05.2015 22:01, Dean Still wrote:
>>
>>                                 Hi Ronald,
>>
>>                                 I'll keep looking. I think that we
>>                                 shouldn't forget cleaner fuel recipes
>>                                 as part of the solution.
>>
>>                                 Best,
>>
>>                                 Dean
>>
>>                                 On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 12:33 PM,
>>                                 Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de
>>                                 <mailto:rwhongser at web.de>> wrote:
>>
>>                                     Hi Dean,
>>                                     I did some searching around on
>>                                     the internet several years ago on
>>                                     this topic.
>>                                     I'd like to try torrefied stuff
>>                                     as well, but I struck out at that
>>                                     time.
>>                                     No idea where to find them.
>>                                     The main advantage that I picked
>>                                     up on at that time was that they
>>                                     should be relatively inert as to
>>                                     picking up extra water after they
>>                                     were pelletized.
>>                                     Cleaner burning than what?
>>                                     clean burning is a control issue,
>>                                     not a fuel issue as far as I
>>                                     understand. If I understand the
>>                                     concept correctly, it's like
>>                                     using part of the large molecules
>>                                     initially broken out (cracked) by
>>                                     the heat in the reaction vessel
>>                                     to coat the surfaces of the
>>                                     remaining unpyrolized material.
>>                                     This should burn quite okay in a
>>                                     TLUD.
>>
>>                                     regards,
>>                                     Ronald von Nasennebenhöhlenhölle
>>                                     (but I'm coming back)
>>
>>                                     On 23.05.2015 20:56, Dean Still
>>                                     wrote:
>>
>>                                         Hi All,
>>
>>                                         I'd like to try torrified
>>                                         pellets in a TLUD under the
>>                                         emissions hood.
>>
>>                                         Any ideas on where to find them?
>>
>>                                         Or if it should be cleaner
>>                                         burning?
>>
>>                                         Best,
>>
>>                                         Dean
>>
>>                                         _______________________________________________
>>
>>                                         Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                                           
>>
>>                                         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>
>>                                         stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org  <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                                           
>>
>>                                         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>>                                         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                                           
>>
>>                                         for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>
>>                                         http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>                                           
>>
>>
>>                                     _______________________________________________
>>                                     Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                                     to Send a Message to the list,
>>                                     use the email address
>>                                     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>                                     <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                                     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
>>                                     List Settings use the web page
>>                                     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                                     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, 
>>                                     News and Information see our web
>>                                     site:
>>                                     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>                                 _______________________________________________
>>
>>                                 Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                                   
>>
>>                                 to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>
>>                                 stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org  <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                                   
>>
>>                                 to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>>                                 http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                                   
>>
>>                                 for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>
>>                                 http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>                                   
>>
>>
>>                             _______________________________________________
>>                             Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                             to Send a Message to the list, use the
>>                             email address
>>                             stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>                             <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                             to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
>>                             Settings use the web page
>>                             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                             for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News
>>                             and Information see our web site:
>>                             http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>                         _______________________________________________
>>
>>                         Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                           
>>
>>                         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>
>>                         stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org  <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                           
>>
>>                         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>>                         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                           
>>
>>                         for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>
>>                         http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>                           
>>
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>                     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>                     <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use
>>                     the web page
>>                     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and
>>                     Information see our web site:
>>                     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Stoves mailing list
>>
>>                 to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>                 stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>                 <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>                 to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the
>>                 web page
>>                 http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>                 for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
>>                 see our web site:
>>                 http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Stoves mailing list
>>
>>             to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>             stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>             to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>             for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information
>>             see our web site:
>>             http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Stoves mailing list
>>
>>         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>         stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>         <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>         for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see
>>         our web site:
>>         http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Stoves mailing list
>>
>>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>     <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our
>>     web site:
>>     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Stoves mailing list
>
>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>     stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>     <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
>     site:
>     http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20150525/8457964f/attachment.html>


More information about the Stoves mailing list