[Stoves] History of clean Chinese stove development. Re: Rights about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves]

[Paul Anderson]

Dear Dana,

Thank you for the information.   Please put all of us into contact with

Chen Xiaofu of
CAREI who collaborated on the stove competition.

You might also forward to him the previous messages here and below.   Thanks for that assistance.

Basically, documentation about the pre-1985 early use of (and origins of) micro-gasification of any type would be of interest, and especially regarding what is today known as TLUD gasifiers.   Please note that "micro-gasification" is not a quantified term, but generally means the smallish devices for residential cooking.

Large gasification of different types has been done for maybe 200 years, maybe longer.  Long ago cities had pipes of coal gas into homes for lighting and cooking.  That is not what we are discussing.

Maybe now, in 2015, there can be some clarification on this topic of long-time existence of micro-gasifiers for residential cooking.  I hope that documentation can be provided.

Such documentation will raise the question of where were these technologies when the big stove research project were done in the 1970s and 1980s, including in China?   Certainly nobody had reasons to hide them or prevent them from such stoves being produced.

In case you have not seen this, micro-gasifiers have received some significant recognition (ESMAP + GACC 2015 publication, page 90).
https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf
> “*The most exciting technology trend in the biomass cookstove sector 
> is the growing range of forced draft and natural draft gasifier 
> stoves*.These stoves have shown the greatest potential to improve 
> health and environmental outcomes, at least under laboratory 
> conditions.”(ESMAP 2015, p. 90).

I and the whole world will gladly give recognition when documentation is provided.
  
Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 9/14/2015 5:06 PM, Dana Charron wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Sorry I don't have time to get on the listserv but I will answer the
> question about the competition.  I suggest that you talk to Chen Xiaofu of
> CAREI who collaborated on the stove competition that you reference.  At the
> time, he told me that the stoves in the competition were a small subset of
> the stoves on the market.  The difference was that most of the gasifier
> stoves were of a larger scale and used primarily for heating or heating
> water on a larger scale, whereas our competition aimed to highlight the
> newer application of the technology for single household cooking.  Chen has
> been in this sector in China for decades and he'll be able to give you lots
> of information in English.  If you don't know him already, I'd be happy to
> make an email introduction.
>
> Hope this helps, and hi to you too, Dean!
> --Dana
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 10:06 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>;
> Dana Charron <dcharron at berkeleyair.com>; biochar-stoves - Specific Listserv
> <biocharstoves-7y82a at wiggiomail.com>
> Subject: History of clean Chinese stove development. Re: [Stoves] Rights
> about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves]
>
> Dean and all,                           (To post at www.drtlud.com , but
> all replies via the Listservs, please.)
>
> It is remarkable how the documentation of the development of
> clean-burning stoves in China is so scarce.   If you can influence
> anyone to actually substantiate what you have written in your email below
> and put it into English, that would be a great service.
>
> Instead, the evidence that comes from China today is that the air pollution
> from the coal burning stoves is horrible and that they are
> wanting solutions.   And I doubt that the principles of TLUD-type
> combustion are being used with those hundreds of millions of stoves that you
> mention.
>
> Crispin reports great success of lower emissions with gasifier-type (whether
> TLUD or not is not an issue) stoves (for cooking and for
> heating) burning low-grade coal  in Mongolia.  That is documented evidence,
> and the concepts and designs did not come from copying the Chinese coal
> burning stoves.
>
> Less than 10 years ago (2007) there was a competition of clean
> cookstoves in China.  Dana Charron and Berkeley folks helped run it.
> Many candidates.  Of the seven or eight finalists, only one (Daxu) was a
> legitimate TLUD gasifier, and it won first place.   So, I see no support
> for your statement:
>> the modern Chinese stove community has specialized in TLUD type
>> natural draft stoves for more than 20 years.
> Dean, you and anyone else are invited to present documentation about
> stove progress in China or in any country.   But simple statements
> without backup documentation are not sufficient, and should not be coming
> from a person who is continually invited to represent the
> informal Stover Community to administrators and sources of funding.
> Your comments below only contribute to the myths that plague our work and
> our progress.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 9/13/2015 12:45 AM, Dean Still wrote:
>> Hi Paul and Ron,
>>
>> Let's not forget that the modern Chinese stove community has
>> specialized in TLUD type natural draft stoves for more than 20 years.
>> It's just as likely that the stove you ordered was designed in China
>> and is now being sold worldwide. I think it is also sold by SilverFire?
>>
>> Hundreds of millions of natural draft coal burning TLUD type stoves
>> are sold in China. Many manufacturers make biomass fueled forced air
>> stoves like the Tom Reed stove but they are larger to match the big woks.
>>
>> It would be very interesting to learn about the Chinese history of top
>> feed cylindrical combustion chamber with primary and secondary air
>> stoves.  The Chinese batch fed primary/secondary air stoves could be
>> hundreds of years old. I don't know.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dean
>>
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