[Stoves] Clean coal burning stoves Re: History of clean Chinese stove development.

Tue Sep 15 13:33:08 CDT 2015

Paul  cc list

	Well - I have to disagree.  

	Our EPA has declared that CO2 from all fossil fuels is a pollutant.  That was held up in the US Supreme Court. Most of the world agrees that fossil fuel CO2 needs to be eliminated and that is what COP21 in Paris is about.

	 Per the latest IPCC documents,  we have to get off all fossil fuels.  And so I hope that GACC will stay away from endorsing any coal, oil, or natural gas consuming stove.  Those fuels don’t need the help of this list or GACC.   Biomass can supply all those forms of energy anyway - in most cases cheaper where biomass cook stoves are now in use.

> 	Additionally the guiding words for this list emphasize it is for biomass.  [“Our site is dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions.”]

Ron

On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:01 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

> Dear ALL,                                                           (post to drtlud.com website)
> 
> EVERYONE should carefully read Crispin's message (below).  I cannot substantiate his comments about specific stoves, and we will hope that Prof. Lloyd will send references about the Scotch Method.
> 
> Otherwise, I am IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH CRISPIN.   Read each line, soak it in.  
> 
> Concerning the stoves in Mongolia, of course I am delighted that:
>> 
>> all but one of them is a TLUD.
> But that is not the issue.   The issue is that low grade coal is able to be burned cleanly in sufficiently inexpensive cookstoves for the climate and culture.  Note that those Mongolian stoves have an important function for household heating, helping to justify the higher costs of stoves with heavier metal.  The probable financial assistance ("subsidy" to the purchaser) can be justified in the clean air accomplishments that benefit not just the impoverished people, but also all of the wealthy who want clean air both locally and internationally (global air quality issues are important).  
> 
> The Mongolian stoves are not being proclaimed as being for tropical areas where the stove constructions and costs need to be different.
> 
> About coal as fuel for stoves and home heaters:  Coal needs to be included in the fuels for cookstoves WHEN COUPLED WITH CLEAN-BURNING STOVES.  When that is the case, the only major "negative characteristic" is that coal is a fossil fuel (being carbon positive to the atmosphere).   Well, that also applies to LPG !!!!  which is a very highly regarded fuel for clean cookstoves.   Double standards are not acceptable.   This issue needs to be addressed!!!    
> 
> And it should be addressed at least by the time of the GACC Forum in Ghana on 10 -13 Nov where a resolution or statement or declaration (or whatever groups do) could be officially made about the acceptability of coal as a cookstove fuel WHEN USED IN CLEAN-BURNING STOVES.
> 
> None of the above is against fan-assisted stoves or natural draft TLUDs.  Instead, the effort is to  get coal and the appropriatecoal-burning stoves added to the list of contributing solutions to the world's cookstove problems.
> 
> Comments please to the Stoves Listserv.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> On 9/14/2015 10:45 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>> Dear Paul
>> 
>> That linked document has this to say: “For biomass cooking, pending further evidence from the field, significant health benefits are possible only with the highest quality fan gasifier stoves…”
>>  
>> I don’t know who invented that idea – it is traceable to Kirk Smith (Bangkok, Nov 2010) but I think the concept that ‘the only really clean stoves are fan assisted gasifiers’ is older than that. Maybe it emerged from Berkeley. It doesn’t matter.
>>  
>> It is not true.
>> 
>> Is that clear enough? How else can we say it? It is not true that the only really clean stoves are fan assisted gasifiers. This caution is also contained in the statement, “It is not true that the only really clean stoves are fan assisted or ND TLUD pyrolysers.”
>> 
>> The most expensive externally funded improved stove replacement programme in the world is the Mongolian urban ger stove programme, funded by the US-based MCC through the MCA-Mongolia account, the WB, the Asian Development Bank and the City Government of Ulaanbaatar. There are a large number of additional players including Xaas Bank, carbon trading funders and national Ministries.
>> 
>> Assiduously examining a large number of stove options, and creating an advanced testing laboratory on a shoe string, incorporating a test method that predicts reasonably the field performance (field testing proved to be nearly impossible, even for LBNL, which tried hard) a set of stoves that are well over 90% cleaner than the baseline stoves (several >98%) was selected for distribution. Not one of them is fan assisted and not one of them is a pyrolyser save in the sense that all coal stoves are pyrolysers. Certainly it is true that all solid fuel stoves are gasifiers. Quibbling will not change the fact flames burn gas.
>> 
>> A lot of people worked hard to bring this together and pull off the biggest clean-up of a major city’s air ever accomplished without changing the fuel – because the fuel was never the problem. It is an excellent fuel and burns so cleanly the stove comparison chart would have to create two more tiers to fairly accommodate them. The fact that this achievement is still ignored continues to stain the ICS community. The reason for this is obvious: coal is supposed to be the demon fuel that cannot be burned cleanly. Millions of people are going to burn coal for a long time to come – deal with it. Burn it properly.
>> 
>> These super-clean stoves originate from Turkey, China and Mongolia. The producers pay no attention to anything going on in the “TLUD world”, even though all but one of them is a TLUD.  It is unfortunate that the fictions that “solid fuels cannot be burned cleanly”, and “only fans work”, and “coal cannot be burned cleanly” because it contains “pollution” are repeated by those who should know their field better.  Making these statements makes the speaker look like a disconnected amateur. Modern Austrian fireplaces are cleaner than most very improved stoves and they are made of brick for heaven’s sake. They are not even ‘stoves’. The Russians are building ‘bell’ heat exchangers that are brilliant.
>> 
>> The IC stove community has to start living in the present.
>> 
>> Here is a test of the laboratory air at the SEET lab and the emissions of a cross draft stove (currently reproduced exactly by a small local welding shop in Ulaanbaatar):
>> 
>> [[ Image deleted from copy of message.]]
>> 
>> These two Dusttraks were compared with each other before this photo was taken. They agreed within 2 micrograms at a concentration of more than 400.  The one on the left is brand new, brought by LBNL (Berkeley) measuring the ambient air (195 µg/m3) and the one on the right is from SEET Lab sampling directly from the chimney (0 µg/m3). That is a clean stove. The dirty air going into the stove is being cleaned by the fire, while burning wet lignite: 50% volatiles (AD) and 26% moisture.
>> 
>> It is high time to admit that coal and indeed wood can be burned by a number of methods extremely well.  No fuel has a monopoly on cleanliness.  The concept of a ‘dirty fuel’ is archaic and was never correct. It was always a misconception.
>> 
>> Equally incorrect is the idea that ethanol, for example, is a ‘clean fuel’. I have just seen a test of an ethanol stove that doesn’t come close to meeting the South African kerosene stove test requirement at high power or low. This is quite common. Most ethanol stoves are not very clean when it comes to CO. They literally can’t hold a candle to the stoves sold in Ulaanbaatar that burn lignite. Why? Bad combustion.
>> 
>> What’s next? China of course. And India. Why should their stove programmes be held back by errant preconceptions originating within the ‘clean air’ and ‘clean stove’ communities? If the clean air and clean stove communities can’t keep up with reality, others will step in to lead. Projects are not going to be willing to spend $50m on junk science claims. Or $500m.
>> 
>> Paul, you are correct to ask for references. The method of burning coal “TLUD” is called the ‘Scotch Method’ in South African and goes back over a century. I believe Prof Lloyd has some sources for that because he was thinking about the problem in the mid-70’s.
>> 
>> Regards to all
>> 
>> Crispin
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> In case you have not seen this, micro-gasifiers have received some significant recognition (ESMAP + GACC 2015 publication, page 90). 
>> https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf  
>>  “The most exciting technology trend in the biomass cookstove sector is
>> the growing range of forced draft and natural draft gasifier stoves.  These stoves have shown the greatest
>> potential to improve health and environmental outcomes, at least under
>> laboratory conditions.”  (ESMAP 2015, p. 90).  
>>  
>> 
>> 
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