[Stoves] Testing to determine source of CO
Frank Shields
franke at cruzio.com
Sun Sep 20 19:44:11 CDT 2015
Alex, Stovers,
I think what happens (and I hope I will be corrected if wrong) is that during ‘cracking’ heat is required. Only when broken to structures that can be oxidized will heat be released. So large volatile structures passing the secondary will take heat away from the flame. But countered with releasing more heat from oxidized materials. Not sure how important that is if that is how it works. So its a fine line we walk when cracking and oxidizing within the combustion chamber. I think measuring CO in the combustion chamber and CO and CO2 in the stack in a manner that is normalized (helium surrogate) may give us some ratios to work - except for the sneakage missing things up! Using pure CO can help determine changes that take place in a constant system.
Regards
Frank
Frank Shields
franke at cruzio.com
> On Sep 20, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> True that could happen with too much primary air but is that what we want to happen? We want heat to 'crack?' the complex structures to smaller more easily oxidized ones but we do not want them to go all the way to CO2 and water releasing its heat before it reaches the frying pan. So the goal as I understand it is to use the heat from the solid-C > CO and only as much heat from the CO > CO2 to be able to crack the hydrocarbons into easily oxidizable structures and the rest of the CO aiding the secondary.
>
> I think added oxygen from primaryy will first change the easily CO > CO2 and only after this has been completed will the cracked hydrocarbons be oxidized. But its only a guess until its tested.
>
> Regards
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Shields
> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/20/2015 2:35 PM, alex english wrote:
>>
>> Frank,
>> Some of the volatile hydrocarbons are burning in the primary too.
>> Alex
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
>> Alex, Stovers,
>>
>> Definitely more complex than I imagined. Sneakage - I never would have guessed. Hard to correct for that one.
>>
>> There are three sources of heat: 1) large volatile organics 2) Solid-C > CO and 3) CO > CO2.
>>
>> 1) The first one is only for the secondary
>> 2) Second only for the combustion chamber
>> 3) Third can be for the combustion chamber or the secondary
>>
>> So ignoring sneakage (Ha) it is only (3) that we have any control over. We add more primary air to add heat to the combustion chamber or less air to send it up to add heat to the secondary.
>>
>> We can measure the heat energy from all three using the pipe. And I think it might be these three values that we can use to categorize different biomass fuels (perhaps coals?). It could be that simple.
>>
>> Then to find the right architecture for a combustion chamber that reduces sneakage and cleanly burns.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank Shields
>> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 20, 2015, at 11:41 AM, alex english <aenglish444 at gmail.com <mailto:aenglish444 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Frank,
>>> I have measured between the primary and secondary zones of a TLUD. CO and CO2 were in the 8% to 11% range on a dry volume basis. Oxygen would be near zero. At the same time the stack concentration can be; CO near zero, CO2 ~ 12%, Oxygen ~8%.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to predict what would happen with CO injected at different levels. A secondary burner may be operating near the edge of its operational 'sweet spot' and any change will result in an increase in stack CO. It could also be that it is operating with to much excess air,( excess excess air if you will), and the added CO would be quickly oxidized, reducing excess air and increasing the hot mix temperature, resulting in lower stack CO. In this scenario adding CO helps to better burn the CO that is already present.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
>>> Greetings Stovers,
>>>
>>> The question I have is does the CO measured in the stack after the secondary combustion come from Primary Combustion (PC) or Secondary Combustion (SC)?
>>>
>>> As I understand how it works{
>>>
>>> We know the primary combustion will produce large organic pyrolysis gases until the internal oxygen and hydrogen is consumed then will switch to releasing heat with added outside oxygen as the solid goes to CO and CO to CO2.
>>>
>>> So is the CO found in the stack from CO produced in the PC making its way through the SC or from incomplete combustion of large organic structures not properly prepared for the SC?
>>>
>>> If we were to set up a stove operating and measure the CO in the stack, then introduce CO along with the primary air from a compressed CO tank - would we see an increase in CO in the stack? or is it easily and completely combusted in the secondary? If not seeing any and we kept increasing the CO being delivered how high can we go before seeing ‘break through’? And then if we increased primary air will the CO delivered combust in the combustion chamber increase CO2 in the stack and increase combustion chamber temperature?
>>>
>>> Im thinking the CO produced in the PC is very important in controlling combustion chamber temperatures that prepare the complex pyrolysis gases for the SC.
>>>
>>>
>>> Im sure this simple experiment must have been done somewhere and wondering what the results are.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank Shields
>>> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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