[Stoves] TLUD stove is fragile, traditional stove is robust, no stove is antifragile
lh cheng
lhkind at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 03:19:00 CST 2017
Yes, my situation is a little dangerous and lack of consideration, I have
two windows and always have my door open when stove is on (windows and door
form a direct channel to both outside). otherwise it is very dangerous, I
know. I had to clean up the smoking stove in the smoke that is why I got
poisoned that time. with Chimney and other thing, indoor cooking still the
same almost. chimney can't deal with that amount of smoke. whenever
secondary combustion is out, the situation is always hard. DIY TLUD stove
and indoor cooking is not appropriate.
2017-12-03 14:51 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
> Cheng,
>
> Your experiences are highly interesting. Let's review the situation (as
> far as it is known from the messages).
>
> You have been using a homemade TLUD stove for less than one month. And
> you use it inside a room that is sufficiently enclosed that any emissions
> must exit through a window. You are in China, and the past month with
> stove usage was a November. Most of China has reasonably sealed housing to
> keep out the winter weather. You are not an experienced user of TLUD
> stoves. And we do not know what your are using as fuel.
>
> NOBODY should be using ANY Do-It-Yourself stove in such a situation. In a
> reasonably sealed residence, nobody should be using any biomass stove
> indoors without an adequate chimney.
>
> I am glad that you did not die or suffer permanent damage. I have never
> before asked anyone to stop working with TLUD stoves, but I suggest that
> you stop.
>
> Paul Anderson
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 12/2/2017 9:14 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> Dear Dr,
> I was just thinking the case in India ( I had thought the number is
> 1,1000) , that evidence is very strong. In my case, I have suffered one gas
> poison. dizzy and paralyzed a little bit for 10 hrs, I only use TLUD less
> than 1 month, many times big smoke go out from my window, my neighbor is
> very nice not calling the police. I can't imagine how a housewife deal with
> the hard situation, maybe DIY is not a good idea.
>
> regards
>
> 2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
>
>> Cheng, see below
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>
>> TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes from a
>> book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr Anderson, he
>> is a Doctor and professor. He have a good understanding of man-made
>> artificial system, have deep insight of the weakness of some man-made
>> system, and he find a good way to make money (of no small amount ) through
>> it from financial market.
>>
>> Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful, but there
>> were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the surface,
>> when something wrong happened eventually, inevitably, no one can afford it.
>>
>> I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make something
>> clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a
>> direction to improve it, and help the user to use it in a safer way.
>>
>> TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is batch-feed,
>> this combination create efficiency and convenience, but also big risk. many
>> thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion ) go out, too much or too little
>> gas, too much or too little air, temperature too low, (too much or too
>> little prmary air, cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to
>> extinguish of the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel.
>> once the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and the
>> fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to put
>> out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad situation for
>> housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke, people even can got killed by
>> the poisonous gas. (when water can't low down the charcoal temperature,
>> water H2O can be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).
>>
>> The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD stove
>> users living closely together in We s Bengal, India. the concerns you
>> raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality. You are
>> writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years ago. I heard that over
>> and over. It is in the big New Yorker magazine articles. Those people
>> are not saying such things any more, at least not publically or where their
>> comments could leak back to me.
>>
>> Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not batch-feeding,
>> not burning in a tight closed space. and safer in unexpected situation. it
>> is robust. that's why people prefer it over TLUD stove maybe.
>>
>> I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking it
>> thoroughly.
>>
>> I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well informed or
>> with much experience. Stick with the TLUD stoves. They are the wave of
>> the future. They can become better, and that is where you and others will
>> eventually make important contributions. -- And there will be many who
>> will sit on the sidelines. --- Progress in the past few years has
>> been great, and getting better all the time.
>>
>> I'll sign this message to show my full bias.
>>
>> Dr TLUD
>>
>> best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Paul:
>>>
>>> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
>>> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
>>> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
>>> feedstock.
>>>
>>> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be
>>> given to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer -
>>> on the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
>>> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
>>>
>>> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
>>> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
>>> supposed "stove science".
>>>
>>> Nikhil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.
>>>>
>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>
>>>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater.
>>>> Too expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no
>>>> one buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use
>>>> new type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
>>>> about this stove, that might be fine.
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove. Yes, it
>>>> is expensive, but expensive is a relative term. It could be imported into
>>>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
>>>> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion
>>>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a
>>>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is
>>>> enough.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the
>>>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems that
>>>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd Albi might be
>>>> able to shed some light on this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of
>>>> stove design spread among people, and people help each other.
>>>>
>>>> What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have
>>>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory
>>>> context.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than
>>>> 30 millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and
>>>> people have memories.
>>>>
>>>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
>>>> deaths.
>>>>
>>>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv. We appreciate your
>>>> insights.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> best regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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