[Stoves] TLUD stove is fragile, traditional stove is robust, no stove is antifragile

neiltm at uwclub.net neiltm at uwclub.net
Sun Dec 3 06:26:18 MST 2017


On 3 Dec 2017 at 11:14, lh cheng wrote:

> In my case, I have suffered one gas poison.
> dizzy and paralyzed a little bit for 10 hrs, I only use TLUD less than 1
> month, many times big smoke go out from my window, my neighbor is very nice
> not calling the police. I can't imagine how a housewife deal with the hard
> situation, maybe DIY is not a good idea.
> 

I have been experimenting and regularly cooking, all year round for at 
least ten years by now, and I have never ever experienced anything like 
the poisoning you describe, but then I have NEVER run a TLUD indoors - 
always outside, albeit not far from the back door.

In all that time and still to this day as happened only last week, I can 
still make a smokey mess, losing the flame, and I would venture to say 
that this will happen occasionally for as long as you experiment in so 
far as you may be pushing at the limits of stove configuration and fuel 
in your experiments, its moisture content in particular I still find hard 
to estimate without a damp meter, so from time to time I get caught out 
by outdoor uncovered wood that turns out to be wetter than I had 
anticipated.  When this happens there are a number of ways to retrieve 
the situation or bale out of it altogether if the miscalculation has been 
too great!  The simplest way to put an end to disasterous smoke, refusing 
all attempts at re-ignition is to have a biscuit tin available in which 
to tip the entire contents of the stove and put the lid on tight.  
Outside of course you could also douse the smouldering pile with water, 
but I prefer the air starvation method of quenching as what then quickly 
cools is potentially reusable.  I quench all the remaining char this way 
so that by riddling out the ash it is immediately available for the 
barbeque.  

If you can dry enough fuel indoors to supply your cooking needs, then 
building and modifying your stove(s) to burn a more consistent fuel is a 
more reliable way to go.  If indoor drying is a problem for supplying all 
your wood needs, then I have found I can usefully modify the kind of fire 
I want by mixing in damp outdoor wood with stove top dried.  A shallow 
layer of damp at the bottom of a simple fixed air ratio TLUD stove can be 
really useful for extending total pyrolysis time, but at a more 'simmer' 
level after an earlier more vigorous burn with the drier wood at the top 
for the start of combustion.

Ways to revive the lost flame:

I grate candle wax with a serated knife over the top of my fuel as my 
preferred way to start my stoves, and often if the loss of flame is not 
too serious, sprinkling a few more gratings on top can revive the fire 
which can then be kept going.

The other way I use is blasting air into the top of the stove through a 
pipe or I use a barbeque hand cranked fan.

Sometimes even  just throwing a lighted match into the pot, such that the 
brimstone is still burning as it enters can re-ignite the lost flame.

I cook outdoors even when the temperature is below freezing.  As I don't 
have any kind of roof cover outside it is usually only rain that puts me 
off cooking outdoors.

I sent a post to this list last January, illustrated with photos of my 
experiments with utilising damp wood to advantage in controlling the fire 
I want for various cooking tasks, using the simple and cheap stainless 
steel natural draft camping stoves, which are made in China and sold 
through ebay and amazon.  I think they are excellent, and reveal to me 
truly intelligent design which I have found to be optimum in versatility 
for their intended purpose, ie. camping where wide fuel variability is 
the rule, and reliability of starting and robustness of a useable fire 
exceeds clean emissions as a priority.  We have lived for a month at a 
time entirely relying on these stoves for all our cooking.

Look in the archives for:

	From:	neiltm at uwclub.net 
	To:	stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org 
	Subject:	[Stoves] Chinese stove photo sequence
	Date sent:	Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:03:32 -0000

My first post in this thread was on the 18th Jan 2017, and there are 
other posts.  Let me know if you have any problem accessing the posts 
through the web, as I can forward it/them through email to you directly 
if preferred.

If your priority is clean emissions and soot free pots, then you need to 
restrict primary air more than in my experiments above, and a ratio of 1 
primary to 6 secondary is about right, and can be calculated precisely if 
you are using drills to make the holes.  With these sorts of ratios the 
stove will be more fuel fussy, meaning it will need to be well dried.

Take care,

Best wishes,   Neil Taylor (in southern England)



> regards
> 
> 2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
> 
> > Cheng,    see below
> >
> > Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> > Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
> >
> > On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:
> >
> > TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes from a
> > book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr Anderson, he
> > is a Doctor and professor. He have a good understanding of man-made
> > artificial system, have deep insight of the weakness of some man-made
> > system, and he find a good way to make money (of no small amount ) through
> > it from financial market.
> >
> > Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful, but there
> > were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the surface,
> > when something wrong happened eventually, inevitably, no one can afford it.
> >
> > I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make something
> > clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a
> > direction to improve it, and help the user to use it in a safer way.
> >
> > TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is batch-feed,
> > this combination create efficiency and convenience, but also big risk. many
> > thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion )  go out, too much or too little
> > gas, too much or too little air, temperature too low, (too much or too
> > little prmary air, cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to
> > extinguish of the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel.
> > once the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and the
> > fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to put
> > out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad situation for
> > housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke, people even can got killed by
> > the poisonous gas. (when water can't low down the charcoal temperature,
> > water H2O can be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).
> >
> > The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD stove
> > users living closely together in We s Bengal, India.   the concerns you
> > raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality.   You are
> > writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years ago.   I heard that over
> > and over.   It is in the big New Yorker magazine articles.  Those people
> > are not saying such things any more, at least not publically or where their
> > comments could leak back to me.
> >
> > Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not batch-feeding, not
> > burning in a tight closed space. and safer in unexpected situation. it is
> > robust. that's why people prefer it over TLUD stove maybe.
> >
> > I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking it
> > thoroughly.
> >
> > I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well informed or
> > with much experience.   Stick with the TLUD stoves.   They are the wave of
> > the future.   They can become better, and that is where you and others will
> > eventually make important contributions.     --  And there will be many who
> > will sit on the sidelines.     ---    Progress in the past few years has
> > been great, and getting  better all the time.
> >
> > I'll sign this message to show my full bias.
> >
> > Dr TLUD
> >
> > best regards
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Paul:
> >>
> >> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
> >> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
> >> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
> >> feedstock.
> >>
> >> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given
> >> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on
> >> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
> >> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
> >>
> >> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
> >> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
> >> supposed "stove science".
> >>
> >> Nikhil
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
> >>>
> >>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> >>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> >>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
> >>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
> >>> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
> >>> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
> >>> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
> >>> about this stove, that might be fine.
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
> >>> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
> >>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
> >>> higher and it would then be expensive here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion
> >>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a
> >>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is
> >>> enough.
> >>>
> >>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the
> >>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that
> >>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be
> >>> able to shed some light on this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
> >>> design spread among people, and people help each other.
> >>>
> >>> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have
> >>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory
> >>> context.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
> >>> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
> >>> have memories.
> >>>
> >>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> >>> deaths.
> >>>
> >>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your
> >>> insights.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> best regards
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
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