[Stoves] TLUD stove is fragile, traditional stove is robust, no stove is antifragile

Paul Anderson psanders at ilstu.edu
Sun Dec 3 00:51:03 CST 2017


Cheng,

Your experiences are highly interesting.  Let's review the situation (as 
far as it is known from the messages).

You have been using a homemade TLUD stove for less than one month. And 
you use it inside a room that is sufficiently enclosed that any 
emissions must exit through a window.  You are in China, and the past 
month with stove usage was a November.  Most of China has reasonably 
sealed housing to keep out the winter weather.   You are not an 
experienced user of TLUD stoves.  And we do not know what your are using 
as fuel.

NOBODY should be using ANY Do-It-Yourself stove in such a situation.  In 
a reasonably sealed residence, nobody should be using any biomass stove 
indoors without an adequate chimney.

I am glad that you did not die or suffer permanent damage.  I have never 
before asked anyone to stop working with TLUD stoves, but I suggest that 
you stop.

Paul Anderson

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 12/2/2017 9:14 PM, lh cheng wrote:
> Dear Dr,
> I was just thinking the case in India ( I had thought the number is 
> 1,1000) , that evidence is very strong. In my case, I have suffered 
> one gas poison. dizzy and paralyzed a little bit for 10 hrs, I only 
> use TLUD less than 1 month, many times big smoke go out from my 
> window, my neighbor is very nice not calling the police. I can't 
> imagine how a housewife deal with the hard situation, maybe DIY is not 
> a good idea.
>
> regards
>
> 2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu 
> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>>:
>
>     Cheng,    see below
>
>     Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>     Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>     Skype:   paultlud    Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>     Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
>     On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>     TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes
>>     from a book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like
>>     Dr Anderson, he is a Doctor and professor. He have a good
>>     understanding of man-made artificial system, have deep insight of
>>     the weakness of some man-made system, and he find a good way to
>>     make money (of no small amount ) through it from financial market.
>>
>>     Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful,
>>     but there were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway,
>>     underneath the surface, when something wrong happened eventually,
>>     inevitably, no one can afford it.
>>
>>     I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make
>>     something clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its
>>     popularity, find a direction to improve it, and help the user to
>>     use it in a safer way.
>>
>>     TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is
>>     batch-feed, this combination create efficiency and convenience,
>>     but also big risk. many thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion
>>     )  go out, too much or too little gas, too much or too little
>>     air, temperature too low, (too much or too little prmary air,
>>     cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to extinguish of
>>     the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel. once
>>     the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and
>>     the fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy
>>     way to put out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad
>>     situation for housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke,
>>     people even can got killed by the poisonous gas. (when water
>>     can't low down the charcoal temperature, water H2O can be turned
>>     into poisonous CO gas immediately).
>>
>     The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD
>     stove users living closely together in We s Bengal, India.   the
>     concerns you raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot
>     the reality.   You are writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12
>     years ago.   I heard that over and over.   It is in the big New
>     Yorker magazine articles.  Those people are not saying such things
>     any more, at least not publically or where their comments could
>     leak back to me.
>>     Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not
>>     batch-feeding, not burning in a tight closed space. and safer in
>>     unexpected situation. it is robust. that's why people prefer it
>>     over TLUD stove maybe.
>>
>>     I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking
>>     it thoroughly.
>>
>     I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well
>     informed or with much experience.   Stick with the TLUD stoves.  
>     They are the wave of the future.   They can become better, and
>     that is where you and others will eventually make important
>     contributions.     --  And there will be many who will sit on the
>     sidelines.     ---    Progress in the past few years has been
>     great, and getting  better all the time.
>
>     I'll sign this message to show my full bias.
>
>     Dr TLUD
>>     best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:pienergy2008 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>>         Paul:
>>
>>         Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is
>>         whether the users like and use the stove. This is why
>>         contextual definitions matter, because pellet production
>>         costs can vary greatly depending on the feedstock.
>>
>>         A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy -
>>         should be given to the distributor if one exists; could be
>>         given to a bulk producer - on the condition that the stoves
>>         are found useful and used. Metrics of efficiency and hourly
>>         emission rates are just smoke.
>>
>>         I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural
>>         thing, especially in country side." Gives the lie to
>>         physics-only theories of supposed "stove science".
>>
>>         Nikhil
>>
>>
>>         On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson
>>         <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>             Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>>
>>             Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>             Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>             Skype:   paultlud    Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>             Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>>
>>             On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>             Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove,
>>>             not heater. Too expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural
>>>             area, a big number, very big, no one buy, not even one,
>>>             in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
>>>             type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend
>>>             who is an expert about this stove, that might be fine.
>>             I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner
>>             stove.  Yes, it is expensive, but expensive is a relative
>>             term.   It could be imported into America where $230 is
>>             inexpensive, but the price here would be so much higher
>>             and it would then be expensive here.
>>>
>>>             stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr
>>>             Anderson's Champion Stove ), DIY, or made by
>>>             acquaintance, it is something about family, a cultural
>>>             thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity
>>>             or LPG is enough.
>>             Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would
>>             be the acceptance of a stove made with thin metal?
>>             Generalizing, it seems that heavy construction of stoves
>>             is the standard in China. Todd Albi might be able to shed
>>             some light on this.
>>>
>>>             a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic
>>>             knowledge of stove design spread among people, and
>>>             people help each other.
>>             What do you have in mind? in the context of China?   I
>>             have difficulty imagining stove design work in China
>>             outside of the factory context.
>>>
>>>             concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in
>>>             China, more than 30 millions of people died because a
>>>             stove intervention movement. and people have memories.
>>             Please provide more information about this statement
>>             about 30 million deaths.
>>
>>             Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We
>>             appreciate your insights.
>>
>>             Paul
>>>
>>>             best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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