[Stoves] Thai Bucket Stove

Nikhil Desai pienergy2008 at gmail.com
Mon Dec 4 11:14:13 CST 2017


Tom:

The Hyman (1985) <http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/pnaax807.pdf> paper was
financed by ATI and makes the claim

"The KREDP jiko combines features of the traditional jiko and Thai liner
stoves. These stoves have three other components: 1) a fired ceramic liner,
2) an inserted grate, and 3) an insulating layer between the cladding and
the liner, and also on the bottom of the ash box. The metal cladding
protects the liner and supports the pots while the liner reduces heat
transfer losses from radiation. The grate aerates the combustion bed and
channels heat toward the pot. The insulating layer increases the lifetime
of the cladding by reducing its exposure to heat...."


Can you help track down Sam Baldwin? Last I knew, he was doing some climate
policy work for USDOE. I also recognize Ton de Wilde, whom I met several
times nearly ten years ago, and Tony Pryor some 35 years ago.

Steven Karekezi or Mark Hankins may remember this. My impression is, Robert
wasn't involved at that stage. I do not remember coming across his name at
the time of Manibog's 1983 ARE paper on improved stove programs.

The Dunn et al. (1982)
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02904586> paper you cited made
some excellent common-sense points validated by thoughtful expertise:

"What is a good stove ?

A good stove will-
(i) cook well---depends on: nature of food, quantity of food, method of
cooking, cooking utensils
(ii) be economical in fuel use,
(iii) have low cost and long life,
(iv) use local material,
(v) be safe in use,
(vi) be acceptable to local people.

To achieve the appropriate design and produce the fuel saving stoves, the
basic concept of'a good stove' will depend on many factors, not only
technical but cultural as well.

A wide range ofefficiencies for traditional and improved stoves are quoted
in the literature and it is not easy to make meaningful comparisons between
the various designs. It is essential that the measurements should reflect
accurately the traditional cooking practice. "


Maybe Cecil, Crispin and I are old men with long memories and devoid of
admiration for modern fancies, but I for one don't think much has changed
in 35 years except the emphasis on using local material. The worldwide
lowering of trade and information barriers has meant that "local materials"
have changed and also that imported, factory-produced portable stoves may
also meet all the other requirements.

Nikhil


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*


On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:

> We hope that Robert recovers. I have had many informative exchanges with
> him over the years. He may have informed this group about the Thai bucket
> and the KCJ. I’ll have to look at the early archives (1996-2000).
>
>
>
> Thanks Teddy for the KCJ history.
>
> See also: http://www.solutions-site.org/node/50
>
>
>
> The Eindhoven group may be able to shed some light on the origins of the
> KCJ. It wasn’t that long ago (2006?) that Dean Still gathered Piet Visser,
> and KK Prasad, and P Verhaart at an ETHOS meeting.
>
>
>
> This takes us back to some thoughtful work on stoves:
>
>
>
> What Makes People Cook with Improved Biomass Stoves? A Comparative
> International Review of Stove Programs Douglas F. Barnes, Keith Openshaw,
> Kirk R. Smith, and Robert van der Plas, WORLD BANK TECHNICAL PAPER NUMBER
> 242 ENERGY SERIES. 1994
>
>
>
> There may be a clue in a 1982 review of the Thai ceramic stove cited in
> that review:
>
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02904586
>
> The performance of Thai charcoal stove
>
> P D DUNN, P SAMOOTSAKORN and N JOYCE Department of Engineering, University
> of Reading~ U.K. Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Engg. Sci.), Vol. 5, Pt. 4,
> December 1982, pp. 361-372. t~) Printed in India
>
>
>
> Or in Keith Openshaw’s 1979 review:
>
> Openshaw, Keith. 1979. "A Comparison of Metal and Clay Charcoal Cooking
> Stoves." Paper presented at the Conference on Energy and Environment in
> East Africa, Nairobi, Kenya.
>
>
>
> And in 1982:
>
> Openshaw, Keith. 1982. "The Development of Improved Cooking Stoves for
> Urban and Rural Households in Kenya." Stockholm: The Beijer Institute,
> Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.
>
>
>
> There were several projects underway in Kenya during the 1980-1987 time
> period. A few people I have met have told stories about the early
> development of the KCJ. One Canadian told me that shortly after it was
> introduced it appeared in all sizes in the markets without regard to
> dimensions and air hole suited to the size or capacity. A ceramicist from
> Eugene, Oregon, contributed at some point.
>
>
>
> The Barnes et. al paper has a long list of stoves projects that were
> active at the time. It was cited in a paper presented by Tom Reed and Ron
> Larson in 1996 at a thermochemical conference in Banff, Canada.
>
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/content/wood-gas-stove
>
>
>
> My conversations with Tom, Ron, and Mark Bryden at that conference led to
> the creation of this discussion list as an outgrowth of earlier (1994)
> bioenergy and gasification lists that I hosted. Ron became the list
> moderator and the Kenya group was active. Early discussions on the list,
> which Robert contributed to, included stoves like the KCJ and Thai bucket.
> Mark, Dean, and Larry Winiarsky started  ETHOS in about 2000, the same year
> as the Pune stoves conference hosted by the Karves.) We look forward to
> continuing the stoves “conversation” at ETHOS Jan 26-28.
>
> http://www.ethoscon.com/2018-registration/
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Y. Iwan BASKORO
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 03, 2017 9:18 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Thai Bucket Stove
>
>
>
> Hi Crispin,
>
>
>
> Perhaps Robert took part in the development of Thai Bucket Stove if he was
> in the region on that period. However I do not have any document that
> mention his name and involvement - the oldest report I have dated 1985, a
> report of USAID on improved cookstove development in Thailand.
>
> You are right he is a hard worker but almost silent. Wish him recovered
> very soon from his malaria...
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> iwan
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Nikhil and Iwan
>
>
>
> I heard about the Thai Bucket stove (in its current incarnation) from
> Robert, meaning he is the one who told me (?) or someone who was present –
> maybe it was Tig – that Robert was the one who designed it. Maybe he
> adapted  what he found. I do recall it was said to have been in ’82 which
> aligns with the things mentioned below. 1982 was also the year things got
> going on test methods with the French Bois De Feu and Eindhoven Group
> getting going full steam. Piet Visser and all that: KK Prasad and Peter
> Verhaart.
>
>
>
> That was the year we started making improved stoves at TATU – Cecil and I
> – for cooking staff meals. Transkei Appropriate Technology Unit – also
> still alive in a new form.
>
>
>
> This leads me to bring the unfortunate news that Robert is in grave
> condition in the Netherlands in ICU with malaria contracted a couple of
> weeks ago. He is an under-sung hero of the stove community, quietly, some
> say too quietly, organizing things and taking risks. One turned out to be a
> bit too risky. He was in Central Africa last month living on the edge
> (again).
>
>
>
> Nikhil: can you narrow down the event regarding funding at all? I am
> writing something in answer to a question on C4D about the best way to
> bring funding into product development instead of product dissemination. It
> turns out, in historical perspective, that the stoves which are the most
> widely disseminated were nearly *all* designed on the public dime –
> little that there is of that. I find that amazing. Truly innovative stoves
> that became popular were not artisanal developments.  I don’t think that it
> is widely recognized.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> ++++++
>
>
>
> Crispin:
>
> Could be ESMAP funding, for followup on earlier USAID work .
>
> One 1993 paper
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.362.7044%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=ZkQKByVDf0FhEHng2qS51HFVMc9RFpPIqdx0rXgpEh0%3D&reserved=0> that
> van der Plas was a co-author to only mentions "In Thailand, improved stoves
> development started in the private sector; this is true of other countries
> in Asia as well." It refers to several ESMAP-funded stove projects in
> Thailand. (Annes 2: Projects Surveyed for Study.)
>
> This seems to be the most widely cited paper on the subject of what makes
> biomass stoves usable and used, but it is nearly 25 years ago. So much for
> the due diligence of the stove program financiers.
>
>
>
> I had no idea that it was the inspiration for Kenyan Ceramic Jiko (KCJ),
> as reported here
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~mauzeral%2Fwws402f_s03%2FJP.Shena.Elrington.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=eRQQgR3ee0F1L58IwSCD77Rn0FvijZJVdvNKrITo6ys%3D&reserved=0>:
> " The original design for the KCJ was inspired by an improved stove used
> throughout Thailand. This stove, the ‘Thai bucket,’ has an insulating liner
> composed of ceramic that was cemented from the top to the bottom of the... "
>
>
>
> Reducing Indoor Air Pollution in Africa: A Review of Two Successful
> Intervention Programs and Recommendations for Future Intervention Efforts
> Shena M. Elrington May 2, 2003. Looks like a student paper for WWS 402f:
> Sustainable Development- Can We Do It? Prof. Denise L. Mauzerall.
>
> I made an interesting discovery -- according to this
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yumpu.com%2Fen%2Fdocument%2Fview%2F7385282%2Fimproved-biomass-cooking-stove-for-household-use-pdf-101-mb-&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=Lu2sVvKJmdGNsTwtHQssj3%2B1bNB8ErbwjkRIkkwj4sk%3D&reserved=0>
> 1982 paper submitted to the National Energy Administration, the Thai bucket
> stove is thought to have originated in China and could have been brought to
> Thailand a thousand years earlier (p. 33-34).
>
> The report also says (p. 44) that Meta Systems Inc. Thai Group reviewed
> efficiency of various Thai bucket stoves in 1982. I was at Meta Systems in
> 1980-1 and learned my biomass balance work and cookstoves projects there. I
> probably know some folks who worked on that project.
>
> I think the recommendations of this report 35 years ago (on p. 241-2) are
> still relevant.
>
> Reinventing the wheel keeps subsequent generations employed in the good
> cause.
>
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends
>
> The Thai Bucket Stove was designed by Robert van der Plas in 1982. Does
> anyone know who funded that development? Did he do it as part of a project,
> or on his own?
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
>
> *Yohanes Iwan Baskoro*
>
> mobile +62 81 328 430 455
>
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