[Stoves] Biomass stoves v. PV-induction cooking (re: Frank)

Fri Jan 27 12:32:01 CST 2017

A interesting post. It fails, however, to address the issues of the imperative for CO2 drawdown.  The pyrolysis of biomass provides one method of drawdown.

Regards,

Jock

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 27, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Frank: 
> 
> Lovely to hear from you about electric cooking making small biomass stoves obsolete. I too hope so, but don't know if PV prices will come down soon enough. Of course, storage is another issue. But the very availability of grid electricity means that some (difficult to predict) portion of the thermal energy demand does shift away from biomass depending on the price of electricity and the capacity to finance small electrical appliances (kettles, irons,toasters, rice cookers, stew pots, all around $10 bulk ex-factory). 
> 
> I was asked by an ex-ITDG person in 2010 if PV-induction stoves could become commercial reality. I said they could, for upper-income folks, in about five years. I think the time has now come for aid staff, NGOs, fancy tourist spots, to consider PV-induction if rest of their electricity is also coming from PV or PV pico-grids anyway. 
> 
> I don't think the mass market will be ready for another ten years.
> 
> Larger-scale biomass stoves may find a market quicker and in some areas may also grow market share predictably. Higher utilization rates and specialization of cooking tasks -- a limited number of products, which is fine compared to home cooking. (Why, I just picked up a menu from an eatery nearby that specializes in certain Indian breads I can't cook. I have heard of a community kitchen around here where such breads are routinely delivered to the elderly in that particular community. For all I know, their young'uns may also have started bread - roti - contracts.) 
> 
> For those kinds of stoves, with homogeneous solid biomass fuels, the WBT may well make sense and may even produce lab results that predict field performance rather well if adjusted for particular cooking tasks. 
> 
> For the usual "small biomass stoves" for "rural poor households", with no specificity of fuel and other variables except in labs, I think the time is ripe to junk both the performance metrics specified by WHO - fuel efficiency and emission rates (CO, PM 2.5) as well as the test protocol itself. 
> 
> Lab fanatics can continue to do what they have done but labs themselves need to be equipped and trained for new performance metrics and new test protocols suitable to specific contexts, uses, and users. 
> 
> Time to junk it all. May dead wood emit carbon some other ways. 
> 
> Nikhil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------- 
> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>  
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:
>> Ron
>> 
>> That may very well be true. But that means there is no way to determine the best stove for a location from a list. At least no affordable way. So sales are based on the Old Boys (and Gals) Club. And also; There is no real research going on that could take these small stoves to a new level. With new research equipment and new ideas I think not exploring this would be sad. : (     Unless we are thinking these small biomass stoves will become obsolete in the near future (PV cells and electric cooktops) I suggest we are obligated to continue to research for cleaner and better stoves. 
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Frank 
>>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 8:13 PM, rongretlarson at comcast.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> List,  cc Nikhil
>>> 
>>>     I submit this is both a first for this list and a best explanation of Nikhil's stove outlook: 
>>> 
>>> "Another reason the good old performance metrics of fuel consumption and emission rates need to be junked. What matters is how the stoves are used in practice, not what some fanatics come up with in labs. "
>>> 
>>>      Who agrees with Nikhil?   I'll report (possibly tomorrow) from ETHOS on the views there of the "lab fanatics"
>>> 
>>> Ron
>>> From: "Traveller" <miata98 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Frans Peeters" <peetersfrans at telenet.be>
>>> Cc: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:32:07 PM
>>> Subject: [Stoves] Steam cooking (Re: Frans)
>>> 
>>> Frans: 
>>> 
>>> Thank you for bringing up steam cooking. Is "ambient steam cooking" different from "pressure steam cooking"? 
>>> 
>>> Liquid/gas fuel stoves with pressure cookers transformed the lives of about a billion cooks so far. 
>>> 
>>> I cannot say the same of biomass household stoves, but it should be possible. 
>>> 
>>> I find your "1 kg wood = 4 kWh" incomprehensible. That's just energy content. Delivered to pot, who knows? 
>>> 
>>> I think the bigger point is, even a biomass stove that facilitates use of pressure cookers makes a huge difference in time and energy spent. 
>>> 
>>> Another reason the good old performance metrics of fuel consumption and emission rates need to be junked. What matters is how the stoves are used in practice, not what some fanatics come up with in labs. 
>>> 
>>> Nikhil
>>> 
>>> Message: 8
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 13:59:16 +0100
>>> From: "Frans Peeters " <peetersfrans at telenet.be>
>>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advocacy action: ask the GACC to stop promoting
>>>         the WBT
>>> Message-ID: <000001d277d4$005c8080$01158180$@telenet.be>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> HALLO JUDI AND STOVERS
>>> 
>>>    Ambient steam coockers  are of 800-900 watt el Power used 30 minuts for cooking !
>>> 
>>> For a dual meal  less than 0,5 KWh is used = 0,12 ?    or 0,06$ / meal  about
>>> 
>>> 1Kg wood=4KWh
>>> 
>>> 0,25 KWh=62gram wood/meal should be possible with low losses .
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Frans
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Verzonden: woensdag 25 januari 2017 8:44
>>> --------- 
>>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>>  
>>> 
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>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Frank
>> Frank Shields
>> Gabilan Laboratory
>> Keith Day Company, Inc.
>> 1091 Madison Lane
>> Salinas, CA  93907
>> (831) 246-0417 cell
>> (831) 771-0126 office
>> fShields at keithdaycompany.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> franke at cruzio.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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