[Stoves] Dung cakes

Thu Jun 15 09:57:38 CDT 2017

Dear Nikhil,

> On Jun 15, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Nikhil Desai <ndesai at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> Frank: 
> 
> Did you think I would make any claim about premature death without my tongue firmly where it belongs? 
> 
> Of course it is the volatiles. The deceit of "global public health" is in the assumption of "equitoxicity" (with no justification other than that "we don't know it to be otherwise", which is a lie) and in the use of spurious dose-response functions. 
> 
> For most of the cooking market we seem to be obsessed with — poor rural households in the developing world --
Thats what this group is all about. Helping the very poor in the developing world or refugee camps. 

> it is plainly impractical to regulate “the chemical and physical structure of the biomass associated with a task".

So you have given up? Then move out of the way for those that haven’t. And lets stop wasting money on useless ’studies’ just to be able to spend the money. 

> 
> Hence my suggestion to look at market segments where such regulation is conceivable and worthwhile — commercial food processing, crop drying, etc. 
And let the very poor fend for themselves. This group is for helping the very poor. 

> 
> The problem begins with us -- in that we have not defined a problem we have any prayer of solving. 
> 
I have defined the problem. Put a circle around the problem with the 6-Box system. For those that think the problem un-solvable should get out of the way. Quite wasting money that could be used to really solve some problems. (or at least try). 

Frank

> Nikhil
> 
> ------------------------ 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> 
> 24 pieces of dung for $75 USD on Amazon! Growing up on the farm i was knee deep in money every morning and night and didn’t even know it. 
> 
> But my point I have been trying to make for years:
> 
>> Even if dung cakes in religious uses alone accounted for 10,000 premature deaths per year.
> 
> 
> 
> Dung cakes (and all biomass fuels) do not cause premature death. It is the volatiles from heating the fuel and allowed to be in contact with people that cause the problem. It is the chemical and physical structure of the biomass associated with a task that we need to look at and regulate - not some ’name’ of biomass. 
> 
> Simple tests and spider diagrams I’m thinking will do this. 
> 
> Because this is the beginning (Box 1) nothing gets done until we do this - as we very well have seen. Outlawing dung will not solve the problem unless another is substituted that is clean. Studying air quality and premature death will do nothing to solve the problem. We need to work on the problem itself.  
> 
> regards
> 
> Frank
> 
>  
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com <mailto:pienergy2008 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Frank: 
>> 
>> This is the first time I have seen such data, and I am not able to locate the details supposedly at https://data.gov.in/catalog/variety-wise-daily-market-prices-data-firewood <https://data.gov.in/catalog/variety-wise-daily-market-prices-data-firewood>. I cannot open the XML files. 
>> 
>> The website says "The data refers to State-wise, market-wise, variety-wise prices of Firewood. It has the daily wholesale maximum price, minimum price and modal price. This dataset is generated through the AGMARKNET Portal (http://agmarknet.nic.in <http://agmarknet.nic.in/>) which disseminates daily market information of various commodities."
>> 
>> That is, no mention of charcoal or dung cakes. 
>> 
>> Now to your questions; 
>> 
>> a. Chips probably refers to wood waste from timber mills and construction, packaging enterprises. I have heard of different prices in my city for "firewood" (chopped branches and twigs) and such waste wood (don't remember the local word). In towns along the highway, I have seen 2-3 varieties of firewood -- depending on the thickness, perhaps tree type -- for sale during winter periods (for space heating). I have heard - not confirmed - that the most common trees are neem and mango. Occasionally another type of wood is also in the market - acacia. 
>> 
>> b. Dung cakes are usually from cattle (cow, buffalo) manure, mixed with dry grass or grain husks (rice I know of; unsure about other). For the most part, it is a home-based activity for families who own these animals. Horse manure might have been used decades ago, but there are no horses around any more. Nor do I know what commercial (large-scale, 20+ heads) dairies do with their manure. There are no energy specifications; sellers and buyers no longer know each other, but there is probably some consistency in size and mass. 
>> 
>> Because dung cakes are used in religious rituals - weddings, cremations - now there is even an upper-end online trade in such, including deliveries in US. See (if these links work)
>> 
>> http://www.amazon.in/Haat-Gobar-upla-pieces-Completely/dp/B01LZO9OKZ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1497476941&sr=8-4&keywords=cow+dung+cakes+gobar+upla <http://www.amazon.in/Haat-Gobar-upla-pieces-Completely/dp/B01LZO9OKZ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1497476941&sr=8-4&keywords=cow+dung+cakes+gobar+upla> 
>> 
>> and for US
>> 
>> https://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Angus-Cow-Dung-Patties/dp/B01A4UP1RC/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1497477017&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=cow+dung+cakes <https://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Angus-Cow-Dung-Patties/dp/B01A4UP1RC/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1497477017&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=cow+dung+cakes>. 
>> 
>> 
>> If someone spreads the rumor in today's India that GACC is seeking to outlaw dungcakes, I can guarantee there will be a strong reaction from the new gau-goondas (literally, cow-goons). My Prime Minister believes in LPG promotion, but is a devotee of cows. 
>> 
>> Even if dung cakes in religious uses alone accounted for 10,000 premature deaths per year. 
>> 
>> Nikhil
>> 
>> 
>>   
> 
> 
> 
> 

Thanks

Frank
Frank Shields
Gabilan Laboratory
Keith Day Company, Inc.
1091 Madison Lane
Salinas, CA  93907
(831) 246-0417 cell
(831) 771-0126 office
fShields at keithdaycompany.com

franke at cruzio.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170615/62e04c4d/attachment.html>