[Stoves] Upright split-log burning and "Stealth fires" and TLUD camping fires ... was Re: How to make smokeless coal?

[Paul Anderson]

Stovers and campers:

Three parts to this message:
A,  Upright split-log burning  and
B.  "Stealth fires" and
C.  TLUD camping fires .


About A:   Neil wrote:
***********
Not sure if the so called 'Swedish log' counts as a TLUD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIWMKx8anI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUIq7
3l9XpOlq0LYP3l5tQPg

****************
PSA: There are probably many names (and origins)  (and suppliers) for 
the burning of upright split logs, as shown in the video.   But they are 
not TLUDs.   Not even ignited at the top.   It is a nice fire.   And 
very convenient.

*********
About B:  "Stealth fires"   also  from Neil:

Did anyone ever have a conversation with Paal Wendelbo about what he
might have known of the history or ubiquity of lighting fires from the
top in Norway?
************

>> PSA:  Everything Paal Wendelbo told me about the origins in Norway I have already written.   He did not elaborate more to me.   He did not use the term "stealth fire".   But I really like that term.   Note that it distinguishes a top lit fire that is in the open from a top lit fire that is in a container, which has become a gasifier device.  A gasifier means that the creation of the combustible gases occurs in a different place (different level) than does the burning of those gases.   

This distinction between a "stealth fire" (in the open) and a TLUD_GASIFIER _(in a container) is fundamental!!!!   Wendelbo succeeded in putting a stealth fire into a container and accomplished something MORE than a containerized fire.   It happened to have the separation of the creation of the gases from the burning of the gases.   That was NOT Wendelbo's objective.  Wendelbo was not involved with "theory" or "science".   He was totally practical, to bring under control what he saw in his youth.  But what occurred is that the confinement of the stealth fire happened to have the necessary components to be a gasification device with a good fire, and he recognized it as being good.  He did not (at least not initially) recognize his accomplishment as a "gasifier" (in the scientific sense).

In contrast, Tom Reen never discussed stealth fires, but approached the science of gasification with a new twist, the IDD or Inverted DownDraft GASIFIER (now known as TLUD).

Two men with totally different approaches and backgrounds, both accomplished (devised, invented, initiated) essentially the same thing during the same time period (1985-2000).

**************
Neil wrote:
We have heard the Norwegian resistance stealth fires
story, which I found interesting in relation to Baden Powell who actually
describes bunking off into the woods while at boarding school and
lighting "stealth fires" and trapping and cooking rabbits, but then the
top lit idea is entirely missing from 'Scouting for Boys', and its hard
to imagine he would have known the technique but not shared it.
**********************

About C:  TLUD gasifiers as camping stoves.
Perhaps someone will do more study of "stealth fire".    But please do 
NOT start calling TLUDs to be "stealth" devices.

Note:  it is already known that when campgounds and parks prohibit "open 
fires" (therefore NO stealth fires are allowed, not even if in a 
"campfire ring"), the TLUD stoves are "contained fires" and can probably 
be allowed (check with your local authorities) , along with propane/LPG 
stoves and charcoal burners and alcohol stoves.

But for the visual benefits of seeing flames and having light from a 
fire at a camping event,  a TLUD can far exceed the fire-light from LPG, 
alcohols and charcoal that show essentially no flames for 
ambience.!!!!!   And if the TLUD is operated "rich" (much gases because 
of primary air with relatively deficient secondary air), the visible 
flame grows taller (seeking oxygen in the ambient air), and gives more 
campfire-style light.   This is another topic for backpackers and 
campers to experience and to tell us about.  ***** But always be careful 
with fire!!!     We want TLUDs to be welcome and acceptable at 
campgrounds.!!!

Further note:  TLUDs as camping stoves do not send up sparks. TLUDs burn 
gases.  The "sparky" particles of traditional wood-burning are absent.  
This is extremely important for the prevention of forest fires/ 
grass-fires that are a danger from open campfires.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 5/26/2017 4:59 AM, neiltm at uwclub.net wrote:
> On 25 May 2017 at 2:41, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>
>> Question for you: can you ask around some old-timers and find out where
>> the expression "Scotch method" comes from when referring to lighting a
>> fire on top in order to reduce smoke? This name arrived in Southern Africa
>> with people from Europe more than 100 years ago, 120 at least. But where
>> did it originate?
> It doesn't seem to be within living memory of the 'old timers' I know in
> Scotland I'm afraid, but they sent this:
>
> Not sure if the so called 'Swedish log' counts as a TLUD?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIWMKx8anI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUIq7
> 3l9XpOlq0LYP3l5tQPg
>
> Finnish method ...used during Finnish Russian War according to this
> chap...
>
>
> Did anyone ever have a conversation with Paal Wendelbo about what he
> might have known of the history or ubiquity of lighting fires from the
> top in Norway?  We have heard the Norwegian resistance stealth fires
> story, which I found interesting in relation to Baden Powell who actually
> describes bunking off into the woods while at boarding school and
> lighting "stealth fires" and trapping and cooking rabbits, but then the
> top lit idea is entirely missing from 'Scouting for Boys', and its hard
> to imagine he would have known the technique but not shared it.  He talks
> of learning other fire techniques in India and SA, and from N American
> Indians, and he had what he called and illustrated as the 'star fire', we
> know as the three stone fire.  This suggests the approach did not spread
> like wildfire exactly!  And then died out where it perhaps was once
> adopted.  Why, since it is so obviously an excellent and useful fire
> technique?  Haven't noticed Ray Mears using it, and he is a practical
> reviver/rediscoverer of lost bushcraft.  I bet your old scout troop don't
> light camp fires that way any more Crispin.
>
> There seems to be a general hinting in the direction of Scandanavia as
> possibly somewhere to focus on finding the origins, but probably also
> China, and we know that this would have been multiply discovered, because
> the TLUD has been as we know.
>
> My first attempt at one of Paal's TL fires was a revelation, and the
> first time I had ever lit an open fire, and it burned down to the end of
> every stick, leaving just char and ash without once touching it after
> lighting, and very little smoke.  In particular it burned the windward
> side completely, the pyrolysis front moving against the side wind,
> whereas with a conventional BL fire, the unburned wood has to be moved
> over to the lee side. A pot hung from a tripod could have been well
> placed over that fire.
>
> I got my daughter trying it out in her open fireplace, and she was quite
> pleased with the result.
>
> The cheap Chinese ebay/amazon ND stoves have similarities to the prior
> bushbuddy, but unlike the bushbuddy, they separate in the middle for
> packing small, and the grate is different.  Since it emerged that these
> are not cheap Chinese knock offs of the British stoves, but were the
> original basis of those stoves, it seems likely to me at least, knowing
> how good they are that some native Chinese expertise was brought to bear
> on them.
>
> Best wishes,   Neil Taylor
>
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