[Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula

Thu Nov 2 00:36:55 CDT 2017

You seem to be confusing the use of the constants with the derivation of the constants. You asked where the constants came from. I said it was a multifactorial regression analysis of a whole bunch of data from large boilers/furnaces with various fuels. There is, as far as I have been able to find out, no fundamental basis for the constants - just an arithmetic study which derived them. 
Philip 

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at outlook.com> 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 4:30:51 PM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula 

Dear Philip 

That is a name I didn’t see, though I have Mr Siegert from the 1930’as as a target. 

Maybe there wasn’t a Mr Siegert at all. He sounds so real. 

The thing is, there are published tables of the A1, A2, Alpha and Beta constants for the fuel and another for the CO. There are multiple methods for doing it. Here is one: 

Here is another: 

The next one is from the instruction manual of a combustion analyser describing how it works. One Brownie point for each error readers can identify. Two Brownie points for knowing what the 2488 number represents. 

The set is for an instrument that calculates the CO2 from the O2 and CO level. Unfortunately the Excess Air calculation is incorrect for any fuel containing oxygen (like biomass) so the rest are thrown off by that. Assuming the constants (not given) are correct, the top formula is pretty good. It is more detailed than the ones in the EPA calculations and the Chinese national Standard (see corrections proposed for both in Zhang, Y 2014 cited previously). 

I think we need to solve this generically and properly. 

Crispin 

I finally traced Siegert to an Angewande Chemie (I think) of the 1930's. It was not, as we both hoped, based on any good chemistry, just correlations over many boilers and fuels. 

Philip 

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at outlook.com > 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org > 
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:56:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula 

Thanks for that advice Philip. 

We are using it for space heating stoves, using the following approach: 

Water heating for low pressure boiler, direct measurement of the flow rate [cc/sec 0.1] and [∆T ˚ C 0.01] 

Cooking heat gained, ditto, save that the working fluid in the pot and in a heat exchanger are tracked separately [J] 

Heat available from fuel fed [J] 

Calculated stack losses, Siegert with CO compensation [J] 

Space heating from the stove, either as a space heater or a low pressure boiler, inside or outside the heated envelope, is 

Heat available – stack loss = space heating. 

Heat available – stack loss – low pressure boiler water heating = space heating. 

CSA Method B415.1:2010 uses a ‘manually’ calculated method of getting the stack losses per gas, per 5 minutes. This is OK save that the moisture content of missing fuel is assumed. 

In theory the B415.1 method can be turned into a simplified formula with constants but the spreadsheet (which is not normative, BTW) doesn’t do that. 

I want to know how the constants presented in many tables were calculated. The big surprise is that it is so hard to find out. CAU students have been looking for three years. References and tables are everywhere but no formulae. Maybe we are supposed to work it out ourselves, which is fine, but that does not tell “what they were thinking” at the time. 

The Siegert calculation without CO compensation can be significantly in error so the simple version is not recommendable. We know the constants are based on the fuel composition, which means they can be recalculated in real time if we know what the decombusted ultimate analysis is, in real time. That is where I am headed. 

There are multiple approaches taken to calculating the CO2 Max , just as there are different ways to calculate excess air (most of which are wrong). This is a good time to bring some discipline to the calculations, particularly with the (very good) B415.1 method accepted by Canada and the EPA and the committee is being reconstituted. 

It is full of combustion chemistry – I think you would approve! 

Crispin 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Stoves [ mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On Behalf Of plloyd at mweb.co.za 
Sent: 1-Nov-17 09:16 
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org > 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula 

There are various versions in the old literature, but the list is short. Siegert is OK on decent sized boilers; no good for small appliances because it focuses on stack heat losses. Conduction/radiation losses from small equipment are large enough to get wrong answers. 

Philip 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at outlook.com > 

To: "Stoves ( stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org )" < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org > 

Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 3:34:43 PM 

Subject: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula 

Dear Friends 

Does anyone know of a reference to the Siegert anti-equilibrium formula? 

While you are at it, does anyone have a good reference for the calculation of the Siegert variables from different fuels (not a table, the formulae)? 

Thanks 

Crispin 

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