[Stoves] Fwd: RE: Explaination of downdraft in TLUD updraftstoves ---was--Re: Mis-information

[alex english]

Kirk,
Sorry if I am obtuse, but that's my point. It doesn't seem possible. Week
balanced forces at the top.  All the natural draft versions have holes
jetting sideways at the top which is an added  pressure loss which should
favor upward flow in the center.  Any one with a combustion gas analyser
could pick up a sample from the annulus and see a change in temperature ,
oxygen and CO if there were any effect. Patents aren't evidence. I'll make
a prediction, nobody will bother to test  and document this hypothesis.
Words are like everything-nice stoves, Cute name.
Could we please have some ugly data.

Guilty as charged,
Alex

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 7:22 PM, Kirk H. <gkharris316 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Alex,
>
>
>
> This is a natural draft stove in the drawing, and the stove is supposed to
> be able to operate by natural draft.  If only the forced air version had
> been put forward then I would not have expressed any concern.  I am trying
> to understand how this natural draft stove, with no chimney, could have a
> down-draft.
>
>
>
> For this natural draft stove, without the annulus draft there would not be
> a Venturi at the bottom.  A natural draft stove powers any Venturi by
> draft.  Draft is what makes the air move to create Venturi low pressure.
> The air/gas mixture which is burning is emanating from the annulus, so that
> is where the draft would be.  If it is truly down-draft in the fuel
> chamber, the annulus draft is necessary.  In fact a Venturi may not even be
> of consequence.  All natural draft stoves where down-draft exists have to
> have a larger up-draft someplace driving the gas movement, usually in a
> chimney.  In the case of this stove, the only driving up-draft possibility
> would be from the annulus flame.
>
>
>
> You have included some interesting chemistry insights.
>
>
>
> The tall flame is a diffusion flame which indeed has no oxygen in its
> center.  This type of flame indicates inadequate mixing within the stove.
> With good mixing there would be no lack of oxygen in the center and the
> flame would burn quicker and not be so tall.
>
>
>
> Kirk H.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *alex english <aenglish444 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 1, 2018 10:22 AM
> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Fwd: RE: Explaination of downdraft in TLUD
> updraftstoves ---was--Re: Mis-information
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kirk,
>
> A powerful  forced air venturi could absolutely pull down on the gasses as
> you have drawn.  He has quite a swirl in that Nova Video. That tall flame
> is starved for O2 in the center. If there is any mass separation of the
> gasses by gravity or centrifuge the C02 is heaviest then O2,  then N2 and
> CO. Could they be differentially heated??  I see glowing embers at the
> edges. The so called flame cap does not extend to the outer edges. It would
> be very O2 rich there and relatively cold. Some of that could easily end up
> reacting lower down.
>
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
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