[Stoves] Fwd: "The effects of fuel type and stove design on ..." - new citations

Thu Dec 26 16:40:00 CST 2019

List:    cc  Nikhil,  Dan, Paul,  Kevin

	The direct link that Dan refers to is: http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/ <http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/> 

	I have just re-read it, and find areas that both support Dan’s positives and some of my concerns (such as needing a subsidized price - and little char getting into the ground).

	Kevin’s name is here again (my only cc for my 24 Dec. message - still below) because he has been emphasizing zero cost modifications for cooking.  I know he can accept low cost if the units can make money.  How low does low have to be?

	Dan’s remarks help me to respond to Nikhil’s comments to me (see below) - who I am afraid didn’t discuss anything (at all) about TLUD interventions.   Dan is too modest to say so - but he is producing a lot of char while heating his (self-designed and self-built) home in Southern Colorado.  Char used as biochar.  Those going to ETHOS would be well advised to seek out Dan.

 Nikhil - would you be good enough to speak (as an Economist) to a few of the many parts of Paul’s 2016 report.

Paul:  any (third-year) update that would help this particular thread?  I am particularly impressed at the large potential annual income that can be earned.  It looks like one can claim a payback time of only a few months.   Anything new on produced char becoming biochar?

Ron

> On Dec 25, 2019, at 5:41 PM, dan weinshenker <danweinshenker at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering about your evaluation of the project "Case Study of the Acceptance of Champion  TLUD Gasifier Stoves in the Deganga Area, Ganges Delta, India"  ?  Report available on Paul Anderson's DrTLUD website.  Project has expanded significantly even since this report.
> 
> Seems like this is a high adoption program, thousands of stoves, numbers increasing year by year, with year after year sustained success.  It also has many related business components, from cooks earning money; charcoal collectors; charcoal purchases; management and coordination services; stove manufacturer; subsidized purchase finance, etc.
> 
> All and everybody helping the whole; everybody making money.  Nobody getting rich, but enough incentives all around.
> 
> To me, seems like a great total business plan.  Works because it's comprehensive.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:06 AM Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com <mailto:pienergy2008 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Ron:
> 
> You asked for thoughts, so I will offer mine. As an economist, I ought to know how money is made. (Raising grants. Administering grants. By publishing papers and holding fourth at conferences, performing "show and tell" before poor women, a form of poverty and climate tourism. Or taking a cut of the CDM or VER markets to ensure that the poor are properly penalized if their biomass is sourced renewably.)
> 
> Stoves don't make money. People make money. That is a likely clue to why charcoal-making stoves don't sell themselves as much as you believe they should; there are too many cooks making sure that the broth is spoiled. 
> 
> And people "make money" when they do something financially profitable - earning a return on their investment in the stove, their feedstock, and their labor. 
> 
> It may well be that your favorite charcoal-making stoves are not profitable enough in all contexts.  Or that non-cooks are busy baking their own cake in the name of the poor. (EPA and Gates Foundation consultants, to be precise.)
> 
> Nikhil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nikhil Desai
> (US +1) 202 568 5831
> Skype: nikhildesai888
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>> wrote:
> List:  cc Kevin
> 
> 	I recommend this (non-fee) overview article shown below.  The free pdf version is at:  https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf <https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf>.
> 
> 	This is a nice stove-breakdown list - that they mostly cover:
> 
> (a) According to technology used: Traditional and Improved cookstove 
> (b) According to draft or air supply: Natural draft and Forced draft 
> (c) According to combustion mechanism: Direct combustion and Gasifier 
> (d) According to fuel used: wood, Dung cake, charcoal, residue crops, Multi-fuels 
> (e) According to material: Mud, Brick, Ceramic, Metal and Hybrid 
> (f) According to fuel feeding: Batch feeding or continuous feeding 
> (g) According to utility: Domestic size or Community size 
> (h) According to chimney used: Cookstove with chimney or cookstove without chimney 
> (i) According to portability: Portable or fixed type 
> (j) According to pot used: Single pot or multiple pots 
> 
> 	I would add one more:
> k). According to money flow:  Make money or spend money while cooking
> 
> 	Obviously there should be some stove-user interest in money-making.  The only way I am aware of is making charcoal.   Others?  
> 
> 	So this k) option is already possible as a part of c) Gasifier (meaning only TLUD in this paper).  But (unfortunately) not much of k) is now happening as part of c).  Nor is marketing of char discussed in this article.
> 
> 	But there are many ways to make charcoal and some of the other ways are potentially applicable to cooking tasks.   I’m working on a message on these other non-TLUD ways - and would welcome on-list or off-list dialog if anyone else is doing that.
> 
> 	If we discuss k) seriously, it seems that k) can involve EVERY one of the breakdowns a) through j).  I am concentrating now on modifications of both the “Traditional” and “improved" parts of a).  This category can also expand what is covered in a) through j).  For instance,  b) can include “no draft”.   e) may have other options than those shown.  f) might have “and” as well as “or”.
> 
> 	This paper is a nice summary of much past work, but is essentially silent on k) - the making of char/money while cooking.  No discussion of how char influences efficiency computation.
> 
> 	Thoughts?
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Google Scholar Alerts <scholaralerts-noreply at google.com <mailto:scholaralerts-noreply at google.com>>
>> Subject: "The effects of fuel type and stove design on ..." - new citations
>> Date: December 24, 2019 at 6:47:33 AM MST
>> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> 
>> Evolution of high performance and low emission biomass cookstoves-an overview <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&hl=en&sa=X&d=17213963389128872961&scisig=AAGBfm0-waMeF4PChI8-x6xowjhFKrv5zg&nossl=1&oi=scholaralrt>
>> C Samal, PC Mishra, S Mukherjee, D Das - AIP Conference Proceedings, 2019
>> As a huge rural population worldwide is depending on open-fired or traditional 
>> cookstoves to meet daily domestic energy needs, improvement of thermal efficiency 
>> and reduction of harmful emissions are essential. Accordingly, many researchers are …
>>  <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=tw&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA>	 <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=fb&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA>
>> "The effects of fuel type and stove design on emissions and efficiency of natural-draft semi-gasifier biomass cookstoves" - new citations
>> 
>>  
>> CANCEL ALERT <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_alerts?view_op=cancel_alert_options&email_for_op=rongretlarson%40comcast.net&alert_id=YUsCvyJf17UJ&hl=en>
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