[Stoves] Blue flame of TLUD-FA with rice hull fuel RE: Moderated Message

Fri Jan 11 21:31:07 CST 2019

Dear Paul

We can reduced this to a simple question: What are the constituents of rice hull gas and their relative fractions?

Regards
Crispin

Tony,

VERY interesting.   New to me.
This from Wikipedia about Thermite

Thermite (/ˈθɜːrmaɪt/<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHelp%3AIPA%2FEnglish&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=7sYD90ndXCGj6mwdpLnwhLvKqL3WlUm%2BlqngrwVuVcs%3D&reserved=0>)[1]<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThermite%23cite_note-1&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=klasEwgYJAm6zxNzEB4pHK%2BGBmZpoNhAIh3FlcYPzpM%3D&reserved=0> is a pyrotechnic composition<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPyrotechnic_composition&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=mYtZxNEqJJu32ddKN9E0Mlf65ijWQ5XFkM8ye%2BUGypc%3D&reserved=0> of metal powder<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPowder_metallurgy&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=dr0Wu%2FAby67kAlqJSFZC786CxNlyZp0ST0mdIPMm628%3D&reserved=0>, which serves as fuel<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFuel&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=X%2BAVVp9sR29YcV9TxhW1ypyJglqDvQqr%2F040phOMg3g%3D&reserved=0>, and metal oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMetal_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=NWWxTA7Grijkro1C6P3R04XfV1CWTCOAe2qdkg8io%2B4%3D&reserved=0>. When ignited by heat, thermite undergoes an exothermic<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FExothermic&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=d7SnXQ7FMG0btjn0vzcJOUyLrjTzbqVGnurZpBpxJms%3D&reserved=0> reduction-oxidation<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRedox&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=ROq6UC3VaPYGsW%2Fuhm4fhxAiwAzIRFG1g20Je%2B4Ylx0%3D&reserved=0> (redox) reaction. Most varieties are not explosive, but can create brief bursts of heat and high temperature in a small area. Its form of action is similar to that of other fuel-oxidizer mixtures, such as black powder<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGunpowder&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=VDVhKjqED7b3spdToy9wBdqs9LFCEIJK0LiB478rrd0%3D&reserved=0>.
Thermites have diverse compositions. Fuels include aluminium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAluminium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=Gi90DhGuybaoIMRP%2FDJaRDR%2FSTZrhmzxH0kBWPySc94%3D&reserved=0>, magnesium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMagnesium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=St59RYkDU0RfQR00DtV6duWAJwCPACTqED8WmWeit9M%3D&reserved=0>, titanium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTitanium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=1aF8jkTa%2BIYN8f7g0LZZ%2FKWkNezpcj1DrtPzijGCVo8%3D&reserved=0>, zinc<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZinc&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=v0gJXkQnMi74Zhx08lY%2F1wNj6IVaTs1tTFAUULTR%2Fr8%3D&reserved=0>, silicon<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSilicon&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=qEekLg7NcL6kQuBG4aLvRuaS4GbXhApXmzf5T8cdjq0%3D&reserved=0>, and boron<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoron&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=%2F1Gc0ADUvXYheUWLrYvejYjlambCif5vPezrBPAo0ZA%3D&reserved=0>. Aluminium is common because of its high boiling point<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoiling_point&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=kvcmTDIZ4v1w4gnFQfNG0fFwF6Gove2070bZJZi1eNA%3D&reserved=0> and low cost. Oxidizers include bismuth(III) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBismuth(III)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=MgkIhUzMf0lAyiZhCOE79I5a21VF8Gd3IVNNwLVppvo%3D&reserved=0>, boron(III) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoron(III)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=RmRqKCbxX8LhrfWQE2JPQale6%2FFlM4Zk8froRNovzo0%3D&reserved=0>, silicon(IV) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSilicon(IV)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=VLmnXYxVb3y5E0QK3t6znaokIJsFQKDltoPDo3C%2FwLk%3D&reserved=0>,…..

I hope that we can utilize this and then make progress about why the TLUD-FA stoves with rice hull fuel give such a nice, clean blue flame.

Some chemists might shed more light on this, please.

Is the flame blue if the rice hulls are pyrolyzed?

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
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From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>> On Behalf Of Tony Vovers
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 9:41 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Moderated Message

Aaron
It's not my area of specialty but I suspect rice husks pyrolysis has a lot different chemistry going on than other woody biomass.
The rice husks ash is 90+% silicon dioxide Si02 compared to mainly calcium, potassium, magnesium in wood ash.
SiO2 is one of the key components of thermite that can melt steel and burns with a bright blue flame.

Thanks for posting, it's an interesting observation and a reminder that we should not just focus on the organics in our biomass fuels.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 02:04 Aaron Wingle <wingleaaron at gmail.com<mailto:wingleaaron at gmail.com> wrote:
I couldn’t figure out how to reply directly to the threads about Paul Oliver Rice Husk Burner.

Through my observations I have noticed there is something magical about rice husk pyrolysis and forced air draft stoves.  They always burn clean and blue or violet in crazy ways that I haven’t witnessed on many wood stoves. Alex English has a blue flame wood stove and one other possible person and myself.

I would like to see a video or photographs showing that stove burning on wood pellets or chips.  My guess is a mostly yellow flame is produced.

Does anyone know why rice husks are magical?

As an experimenter of these TLUD stoves I find misrepresentation of the cleanliness and efficiency to cause disheartened stove designers.

If I am wrong and that stove burns blue while burning wood chips or pellets, I’ll add Paul Oliver to my TLUD designer shrine of Worship.

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