[Stoves] Blue flame of TLUD-FA with rice hull fuel RE: Moderated Message

Anderson, Paul psanders at ilstu.edu
Fri Jan 11 21:48:56 CST 2019 

Crispin and all,

I will ask Alexis Belonio if he has such information about the constituents of the gases.

But that refers to the ingredients.    How they are “created” (liberated”,  and mixed and burned at what temperatures and conditions are not trivial questions.

We are in the hunt.

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website:   www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>

From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 9:31 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Blue flame of TLUD-FA with rice hull fuel RE: Moderated Message

Dear Paul

We can reduced this to a simple question: What are the constituents of rice hull gas and their relative fractions?

Regards
Crispin


Tony,

VERY interesting.   New to me.
This from Wikipedia about Thermite

Thermite (/ˈθɜːrmaɪt/<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHelp%3AIPA%2FEnglish&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=7sYD90ndXCGj6mwdpLnwhLvKqL3WlUm%2BlqngrwVuVcs%3D&reserved=0>)[1]<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThermite%23cite_note-1&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=klasEwgYJAm6zxNzEB4pHK%2BGBmZpoNhAIh3FlcYPzpM%3D&reserved=0> is a pyrotechnic composition<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPyrotechnic_composition&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=mYtZxNEqJJu32ddKN9E0Mlf65ijWQ5XFkM8ye%2BUGypc%3D&reserved=0> of metal powder<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPowder_metallurgy&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=dr0Wu%2FAby67kAlqJSFZC786CxNlyZp0ST0mdIPMm628%3D&reserved=0>, which serves as fuel<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFuel&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=X%2BAVVp9sR29YcV9TxhW1ypyJglqDvQqr%2F040phOMg3g%3D&reserved=0>, and metal oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMetal_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=NWWxTA7Grijkro1C6P3R04XfV1CWTCOAe2qdkg8io%2B4%3D&reserved=0>. When ignited by heat, thermite undergoes an exothermic<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FExothermic&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=d7SnXQ7FMG0btjn0vzcJOUyLrjTzbqVGnurZpBpxJms%3D&reserved=0> reduction-oxidation<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRedox&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=ROq6UC3VaPYGsW%2Fuhm4fhxAiwAzIRFG1g20Je%2B4Ylx0%3D&reserved=0> (redox) reaction. Most varieties are not explosive, but can create brief bursts of heat and high temperature in a small area. Its form of action is similar to that of other fuel-oxidizer mixtures, such as black powder<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGunpowder&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=VDVhKjqED7b3spdToy9wBdqs9LFCEIJK0LiB478rrd0%3D&reserved=0>.
Thermites have diverse compositions. Fuels include aluminium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAluminium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=Gi90DhGuybaoIMRP%2FDJaRDR%2FSTZrhmzxH0kBWPySc94%3D&reserved=0>, magnesium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMagnesium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=St59RYkDU0RfQR00DtV6duWAJwCPACTqED8WmWeit9M%3D&reserved=0>, titanium<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTitanium&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=1aF8jkTa%2BIYN8f7g0LZZ%2FKWkNezpcj1DrtPzijGCVo8%3D&reserved=0>, zinc<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZinc&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512467919&sdata=v0gJXkQnMi74Zhx08lY%2F1wNj6IVaTs1tTFAUULTR%2Fr8%3D&reserved=0>, silicon<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSilicon&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=qEekLg7NcL6kQuBG4aLvRuaS4GbXhApXmzf5T8cdjq0%3D&reserved=0>, and boron<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoron&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=%2F1Gc0ADUvXYheUWLrYvejYjlambCif5vPezrBPAo0ZA%3D&reserved=0>. Aluminium is common because of its high boiling point<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoiling_point&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=kvcmTDIZ4v1w4gnFQfNG0fFwF6Gove2070bZJZi1eNA%3D&reserved=0> and low cost. Oxidizers include bismuth(III) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBismuth(III)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=MgkIhUzMf0lAyiZhCOE79I5a21VF8Gd3IVNNwLVppvo%3D&reserved=0>, boron(III) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBoron(III)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=RmRqKCbxX8LhrfWQE2JPQale6%2FFlM4Zk8froRNovzo0%3D&reserved=0>, silicon(IV) oxide<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSilicon(IV)_oxide&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=VLmnXYxVb3y5E0QK3t6znaokIJsFQKDltoPDo3C%2FwLk%3D&reserved=0>,…..

I hope that we can utilize this and then make progress about why the TLUD-FA stoves with rice hull fuel give such a nice, clean blue flame.

Some chemists might shed more light on this, please.

Is the flame blue if the rice hulls are pyrolyzed?

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website:   www.drtlud.com<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C05b98816864046c5134708d6783a28bc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636828588512624169&sdata=Kg41gaX9OvQIkTBZ01X7E5eD8sNTltQYmDlrNgRpbAE%3D&reserved=0>

From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>> On Behalf Of Tony Vovers
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 9:41 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Moderated Message

Aaron
It's not my area of specialty but I suspect rice husks pyrolysis has a lot different chemistry going on than other woody biomass.
The rice husks ash is 90+% silicon dioxide Si02 compared to mainly calcium, potassium, magnesium in wood ash.
SiO2 is one of the key components of thermite that can melt steel and burns with a bright blue flame.

Thanks for posting, it's an interesting observation and a reminder that we should not just focus on the organics in our biomass fuels.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 02:04 Aaron Wingle <wingleaaron at gmail.com<mailto:wingleaaron at gmail.com> wrote:
I couldn’t figure out how to reply directly to the threads about Paul Oliver Rice Husk Burner.

Through my observations I have noticed there is something magical about rice husk pyrolysis and forced air draft stoves.  They always burn clean and blue or violet in crazy ways that I haven’t witnessed on many wood stoves. Alex English has a blue flame wood stove and one other possible person and myself.

I would like to see a video or photographs showing that stove burning on wood pellets or chips.  My guess is a mostly yellow flame is produced.

Does anyone know why rice husks are magical?

As an experimenter of these TLUD stoves I find misrepresentation of the cleanliness and efficiency to cause disheartened stove designers.

If I am wrong and that stove burns blue while burning wood chips or pellets, I’ll add Paul Oliver to my TLUD designer shrine of Worship.

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