[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 103, Issue 21
Norman Baker
ntbakerphd at gmail.com
Fri Mar 29 12:49:48 CDT 2019
Julien;
Was there ever emissions testing on this device? It seems to have the
turbulence and mixing necessary for reasonably complete combustion.
Norm
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 10:01 AM <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: More about concentrators. (Julien Winter)
> 2. Re: More about concentrators. (Norman Baker)
> 3. Re: More about concentrators. (Julien Winter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:41:36 -0400
> From: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> To: Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.
> Message-ID:
> <
> CALv4xTxph8DGACC9HzkdKfsjpRBbwPPSmw79ccyqSPdpcXzWUA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Norm;
>
> The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a ND-TLUD
> cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.
>
> For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe
> expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached) that I
> built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon
> drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal slits in
> the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry point.
> Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize
> the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.
>
> For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of
> secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.
>
> Cheers,
> Julien.
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Julien;
> >
> > I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where would
> > you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?
> >
> > Norm
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website
> >> www.drtlud.com/eposts )
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Interesting.
> >>
> >> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight
> >> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> >>
> >> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
> >>
> >> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
> >>
> >> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
> >>
> >> Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM
> >> *To:* Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Norm;
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the
> >> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.
> >> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges. TLUD
> >> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People
> are
> >> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with food.
> So,
> >> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in
> >> hardware stores.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five
> >> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits on
> the
> >> bottom of pots.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Julien.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Paul;
> >>
> >> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In prior tests
> >> with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of 70% of the stack
> >> seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an 80%
> >> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at
> least
> >> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for
> gases
> >> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete
> >> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you
> chiming
> >> in on this.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Norm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Norm,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter.
> But
> >> there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or
> enlarge 10
> >> to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your best bets to
> get
> >> this refined.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I look forward to hearing of your results.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Julien Winter
> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:22:23 -0700
> From: Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> To: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAEZw-BC4Lg_KPhQHdPaSuXe2Zepu6fBjfwmcGELp8s-E84LuHA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Julien;
>
> Thank you so much. Now that I see the nozzle, I remember it well. Seems
> like a good idea to promote mixing.
>
> The 55 gal. barrel has holes in the bottom like a TLUD? And, I assume the
> 35 gal. is a retort?
>
> By the way, David Yarrow now lives just south of Olympia Washington where
> he is very active in a soils group called Nutriculture. Very interesting
> man.
>
> Norm
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:41 PM Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Norm;
> >
> > The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a ND-TLUD
> > cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.
> >
> > For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe
> > expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached)
> that I
> > built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon
> > drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal slits
> in
> > the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry point.
> > Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize
> > the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.
> >
> > For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of
> > secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Julien.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Julien;
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where would
> >> you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?
> >>
> >> Norm
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website
> >>> www.drtlud.com/eposts )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Interesting.
> >>>
> >>> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight
> >>> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> >>>
> >>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
> >>>
> >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
> >>>
> >>> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
> >>>
> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM
> >>> *To:* Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Norm;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the
> >>> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.
> >>> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges.
> TLUD
> >>> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People
> are
> >>> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with food.
> So,
> >>> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in
> >>> hardware stores.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five
> >>> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits
> on the
> >>> bottom of pots.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Julien.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Paul;
> >>>
> >>> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In prior
> tests
> >>> with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of 70% of the
> stack
> >>> seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an 80%
> >>> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at
> least
> >>> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for
> gases
> >>> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete
> >>> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you
> chiming
> >>> in on this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Norm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Norm,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter.
> >>> But there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or
> >>> enlarge 10 to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your
> best
> >>> bets to get this refined.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I look forward to hearing of your results.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Julien Winter
> > Cobourg, ON, CANADA
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20190328/75def3ab/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:10:58 -0400
> From: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> To: Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.
> Message-ID:
> <CALv4xTzRbcvp=
> i6sA7mcip3Xp5Cwd788bdjNVKKN2d7ZBQP02A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Norm;
>
> The photograph is of a double-walled TLUD with pre-heated secondary air.
> The 55 gal. drum has no bottom. The 35 gal drum is the TLUD reactor.
>
> However, I have put the same burner on at single-walled 55 gal. TLUD, with
> a gap between the top of the drum and the lid supporting the burner.
>
> Cheers,
> Julien.
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 10:22 PM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Julien;
> >
> > Thank you so much. Now that I see the nozzle, I remember it well. Seems
> > like a good idea to promote mixing.
> >
> > The 55 gal. barrel has holes in the bottom like a TLUD? And, I assume the
> > 35 gal. is a retort?
> >
> > By the way, David Yarrow now lives just south of Olympia Washington where
> > he is very active in a soils group called Nutriculture. Very interesting
> > man.
> >
> > Norm
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:41 PM Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Norm;
> >>
> >> The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a
> ND-TLUD
> >> cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.
> >>
> >> For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe
> >> expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached)
> that I
> >> built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon
> >> drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal
> slits in
> >> the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry
> point.
> >> Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize
> >> the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.
> >>
> >> For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of
> >> secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Julien.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Julien;
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where
> would
> >>> you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?
> >>>
> >>> Norm
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website
> >>>> www.drtlud.com/eposts )
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight
> >>>> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> >>>>
> >>>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
> >>>>
> >>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
> >>>>
> >>>> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
> >>>>
> >>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM
> >>>> *To:* Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Norm;
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the
> >>>> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.
> >>>> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges.
> TLUD
> >>>> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People
> are
> >>>> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with
> food. So,
> >>>> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in
> >>>> hardware stores.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five
> >>>> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits
> on the
> >>>> bottom of pots.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Julien.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul;
> >>>>
> >>>> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In
> >>>> prior tests with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of
> 70% of
> >>>> the stack seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an
> 80%
> >>>> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at
> least
> >>>> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for
> gases
> >>>> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete
> >>>> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you
> chiming
> >>>> in on this.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Norm
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Norm,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter.
> >>>> But there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or
> >>>> enlarge 10 to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your
> best
> >>>> bets to get this refined.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I look forward to hearing of your results.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Julien Winter
> >> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Julien Winter
> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 103, Issue 21
> ***************************************
>
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