[Stoves] SUBSIDY for new CO2e emissions tops US$150 per ton

Mon May 27 18:23:38 CDT 2019

Xavier:

Thank you for your terse and disdainful rhetoric.

Rest assured it was not misinterpreted.

This list is not about teaching economics, nor IMF politics of inanity.

Andrew got the gist of my comment - that IMF, like many Euro-greens, cooks
up "subsidies" as "externalized costs".

In fact, economics has a provision to deal with this problem of
"externalities" via something called Pigouvian taxes and subsidies.

The implementation of which, unfortunately when it comes to fossil fuels,
demands extremely detailed information and heroic assumptions - and the
usual mutual scratching and patting of backs among purported "experts" (a
la GBD or Bill Nordhaus' Nobel) - to get at a well-reasoned number.

It's all dirty politics of intellectual air pollution.

There was a cottage industry of "environmental adders" in US state utility
regulators during the 1990s. I prepared a review of such for the World Bank
circa 1994.

 An additional problem was that electricity is clean at end use, so
penalizing electricity by favoring "clean energy" meant discouraging
electricity use, which leads to environmental and health costs.

I threw out my externalities reports and books - including one from EU -
yesterday. It is junk economics built on spurious science. If I recall
correctly, the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission opened an inquiry
into such "externalities" tomfoolery circa 1994/5 as electricity market
liberalization was on the anvil.
FERC dismissed the whole shabang, after which FIT (feed-in tariffs with
quotas for renewables) continued, as did the Federal EPAct (Energy Policy
Act) subsidies, which are still used.

I used to get paid a lot - maybe $5-25 a word - to people who already knew
the reasoning, just wanted a judgement they could trust for defense.
Including against IMF. (By the way, it was Joseph Stiglitz who said IMF had
"second rate economists from first rate universities." Not my choice of
insult.)

Kirk Smith justifies subsidies to LPG and electricity - or cross-subsidies
within the supply entities - as "investments in health". Maybe "health
subsidies."

I have no problem with his policy preferences, so long as he doesn't try to
compute $/kg of subsidy equivalence to $/aDALY.

Details are always devilish, blind faith is divine.

If blind faith works, I am happy to declare that subsidies for
electrification and use of electric induction stoves serve the public
interest in urban areas of poor countries. No matter what the source of
electricity generation, appropriately located and meeting environmental
standards.

LPG/gas and electricity for household cooking have a proven record of
consumer acceptance.

Your ISO rigmarole after seven years -- what can I say tersely except
"proven failure".

Have fun failing.

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 6:19 PM <xvr.brandao at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I don't read much this list anymore, nor do I have the time for that.
> But I skim read sometimes.
>
> "The trouble I find with your posts Nikhil are that they are  so terse and
> lacking in any reasoning for your disdain that they can easily be
> misinterpreted."
> I couldn't agree more with what Andrew said.
>
> There's a big issue with Nikhil's rhetoric, there has been one for a long
> time if you want my opinion.
> Difficult to know what his intentions are, but I always found his rhetoric
> harmful, and not aiming towards clarity and problem-solving.
> Using ad-hominem arguments in hundreds of posts all year long takes its
> toll.
> I once used a certain term to qualify that.
>
> These were just my 2 cents.
>
> Good luck everyone with your projects, hope you are making good progress.
>
> Best,
>
> Xavier
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> De la part de Andrew
> Heggie
> Envoyé : lundi 27 mai 2019 19:40
> À : Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Objet : Re: [Stoves] SUBSIDY for new CO2e emissions tops US$150 per ton
>
> On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 13:26, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Kirk H.
> >
> > You are supposing and pre-supposing too much.
>
> The trouble I find with your posts Nikhil are that they are  so terse and
> lacking in any reasoning for your disdain that they can easily be
> misinterpreted.
>
>
> >
> > I suggest you find a definition of subsidy in an encyclopedia or
> dictionary of economics before you lecture me about economics.
>
> This is the nub: the post by Paul  calls what I would consider "non
> attributed external costs" a subsidy. This is indeed misleading because it
> makes it seem the providers of fossil fuels receive a payment for doings
> so.
> In fact  no money changes hands in the same way that renewable energy
> receives direct payments as an incentive (with which I am entirely sanguine
> about) but also they do not have to pay for any perceived damage done by
> the
> use of fossil fuels. This has ever been the case simply because often when
> a
> resource is exploited, in order for a business to make profit from it, the
> true costs to the environment are not known. It is only with time that the
> governance system can recognise the problem and regulate it. We have seen
> this from abandoned mining activities through to waste from nuclear power
> plants.
>
> It is known as "the tragedy of the commons"
>
> Not that any of the above relates to [stoves]
>
> Andrew
>
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