[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 12
Kelpie Wilson
kelpiew at gmail.com
Sun Jan 24 22:03:23 CST 2021
I remember that cat Norm. You and Peggy rescued it!
Here's a tidbit to add to the discussion: think about second law
efficiencies and heat transfer. Turbulence causes friction and increases
entropy. Heat transfer across large temperature gradients increases
entropy. Cool stuff I remember from Thermodynamics classes.
Kelpie
On Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:16 PM <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
wrote:
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> 1. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 11 (Norman Baker)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 11:19:24 -0800
> From: Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 11
> Message-ID:
> <CAEZw-BD_KOTBmgp5o=
> kVHn50Q02si-1KHUsiDDrfntZx_wWysg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I am totally up for this discussion topic. I have to admit I have been
> reluctant to discuss much of what I'm doing cause I have limited time for
> discussion of everything and some health issues. That said, one of the best
> events to ever participate in was the TLUD summit and the facetime at
> Ethos. Let's do iot.
>
> Norm
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 10:01 AM <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> wrote:
>
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> > 1. Re: Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas (Ronal Larson)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:00:20 -0700
> > From: Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> > To: Kirk Harris <gkharris316 at comcast.net>, ETHOS Clean Cooking
> > <ethos.cooks at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas
> > Message-ID: <F549F175-C5C4-4E73-BE99-9C24475D15A4 at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Kirk and ETHOS list, cc stoves. (But not biochar list)
> >
> > Thanks againn for bringing uo this topic.
> >
> > I have some comments to make, but I think would be better first
> to
> > have a discussion with you and others. I sure want to hear Norm again
> >
> > The ETHOS organizers recently said time could be set aside for
> > small group discussions next week. This is to formally ask for such.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 14, 2021, at 12:29 AM, Harris, Kirk <gkharris316 at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > There was a recent discussion on the biochar list about turbulence in
> > the mixing of wood gas and air for burning. Ron Larson stated that this
> > also belongs on the stoves discussion list. The below and the attachment
> > describe my disagreements with turbulence for mixing in a TLUD and
> > describes my hypothesis for a better mixing system. It is the the same
> > system used in the 3 hour TLUD stove I described in an earlier
> contribution.
> > >
> > > I had a very difficult time when I started working on the Wonderwerk
> > TLUD test stoves ~5 years ago. I realized how little I knew about the
> > processes going on inside the TLUD that make it work. I wondered about
> > pressures, temperatures, velocities, and mixing and tried to learn what I
> > could. No papers that I found covered what I felt I needed to improve
> the
> > stove designs. I began to look into what makes a stove do what it does.
> > First I attempted to figure out why the flame goes up through the stove.
> > This landed me on buoyancy. My high school physics taught me that
> buoyancy
> > had to do with a boat in water. That had to be extended to understand
> how
> > buoyancy works in a TLUD, or any wood or gas stove. I developed theories
> > which changed and improved over time, and are still changing. Buoyancy
> > lowers the pressure inside the stove to below atmospheric air pressure.
> > That is what brings the primary and secondary air into the stove, the air
> > follows the pressure gradient from higher pressure outside to lower
> > pressure inside. Once I accepted that buoyancy was moving the gasses I
> > began realizing that the moving gasses had an effect on the pressure
> > variations in the stove through such things as the Venturi effect, back
> > pressure up stream of a restriction in the flow path, and directional
> > impact pressure. Then ideas began presenting themselves as to how these
> > pressure variations could be used to improve mixing. This lead me to
> > notice a mixing technique in the Peco Pe and Champion TLUDs. At the
> upper
> > edge of the fuel chamber the wood gas meets the secondary air. The full
> > pressure difference between the outside atmospheric air and the lower
> > buoyancy provided gas pressure inside the stove was pushing the gasses
> > together. Since gasses are permeable, they could merge, and the mixing
> > here is excellent, molecule to molecule. The flame is smooth, laminar,
> > without turbulence, and yet it was a good mix. However it looked to me
> > that this mixing was not optimized since the air could not reach the gas
> at
> > the center of the gas column. I set about to design a burner which would
> > optimize this mixing system. That is how I arrived at a mixing system
> that
> > does not use turbulence. I tried a number of designs, including the
> > Wonderwerk stove that was tested at Lawrence Berkley National Lab, which
> > was quite clean at moderate power levels. No design seemed to solve all
> > the problems. I wanted it to be simple and cheap to build, and to be
> able
> > to turn the power level up without the burn getting dirty. I was
> assisting
> > Dean Still at Aprovecho with a different experimental design, and after I
> > left to come home, Dean continued his experiments. He found a way of
> > cleaning up the flame without making the burner complex. He told me
> about
> > it, and I thought through it. I realized that his design fit the
> pressure
> > theories that I was developing. I adapted his idea to the TLUD-ND stove
> > and it seems to work. It is simple, and the power level can be turned up
> > quite high before it begins smoking. In fact it can tolerate some forced
> > primary air increasing the power level very high. It can also be turned
> > down to a stable low flame. See the attachment for a description of this
> > mixing technique.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Kirk H.
> > >
> > > On 12/27/2020 8:54 PM, Norm Baker wrote:
> > >> Kirk;
> > >>
> > >> I cannot imagine how your stove does not need turbulence for complete
> > combustion.
> > >>
> > >> The simple fact that the flames are exiting the top indicates at least
> > some turbulence and there
> > >> has to be turbulence just to mix the woodgas or pyrogas with oxygen.
> > >>
> > >> Please explain. Very interested.
> > >>
> > >> Norm
> > >>
> > >> PS How's my cat doing???
> > >> _._,_._,_
> > >> Groups.io Links:
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> > >>
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> > >>
> > >> _._,_._,_
> > >
> > >
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> > 3.docx>_______________________________________________
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