[Stoves] Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

Xavier Brandao xvr.brandao at gmail.com
Wed Apr 6 05:14:37 CDT 2011


Dear Crispin and all,

 

 

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with your statement Crispin on global
warming/climate change/climate disruption.

 

 

I share your opinion that we should know more about the potential damages
done by the charcoal industry before condemning it. Responsibilities should
be clearly pointed out, whether CO and CO2 emissions come from the fuel or
from the stove, what is the real footprint of charcoal over its entire
lifetime. I agree also that we cannot eradicate it as simply as that. It's
not likely outlawing the entire sector would benefit local economy, on the
contrary. In Benin, many people depend on charcoal supply for their cooking,
or simply because they have a job in the sector. It's not sure either
outlawing this activity would suppress it, nor decrease harmful and warming
emissions.

 

"a fable inflamed daily by such as wish to profit from the trade. Statements
such as ?This is for the sake of the forests and of the atmosphere and
global warming? often underlie narrow personal agendas." 

True, global warming is a good marketing argument a growing number of
businesses in the "green energies" sector benefit. So do I. Does it mean it
is not true? You could reverse the argument: companies of the fossil fuels
sector benefit the idea there's no such thing as climate change.

On one side or another, the hidden interests cannot inform us about the
authenticity of the two theories.

 


In the debate of global warming, we hear so many (conspiracy)theories that
it is also easy to go cherry-picking to give credence to one or another.

 

In the Phil Jones graph you sent Crispin, we can see a global cooling, that
is correct, but only for the period of March 2010 to March 2011, so a period
of one year. We should be careful not to make Phil Jones say what he never
meant. If you stovers can read French, you should read this article to have
the complete picture of Phil Jones work and of his views on climate change :

http://www.rue89.com/2010/02/15/le-scientifique-a-lorigine-du-climategate-re
prend-la-parole-138655 

Here's the google translator you will need:

http://translate.google.com 

This article quotes an interview of Phil Jones on BBC published saturday
13th of February 2010. Phil Jones, the director of the Climate Research Unit
of the West Anglia university, clearly states that: " The global warming of
(+0.12°C per decade) is the same over three periods (1860-1880, 1910-1940
and 1975-1998), but we notice on the 2002-2009 period a cooling of 0.12°C
per decade. A tendency which is not significative, for the period is too
short".

So you are right, there is a cooling, it has even been going on for longer
than one year, but it doesn't contradict the global warming that has been
occuring for a century and a half (since industrial ages). Actually the
graph in the link you sent here
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/04/uah-temperature-update-for-march-2011-co
oler-still-0-10-deg-c/ confirms it, we can easily see the tendency.
Temperature of March 2011 is warmer than temperature of 1979. And is seems
March 2011 is a "down" of the curve, it is probably there will be a "up"
soon.

In this article, a another climatologist explains that the pace of global
warming slowed down, it was anticipated by the climatologists community,
this is what they call "a plateau". Phil Jones said he was "100% sure"
global warming was occuring and it was due to men's actions.

 

Crispin, you are quoting Vincent Courtillot. He is perhaps a good
geophysician, but he is mostly known in France for being at best very wrong
on climate change questions, at worst a liar (he and his colleague Claude
Allègre). His theories have been unanimously destroyed by the scientific
community, especially by the Académie des Sciences:
http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-politique/france/actu/020895911845.htm?xtor=
RSS-2059. Bard and Delaygue have shown that Vincent Courtillot graphs and
deductions he was basing his theories upon were full of mistakes (what he
admitted himself later on). More info here:
http://sciences.blogs.liberation.fr/home/2008/02/soleil-et-clima.html.
Before that, there was already an affair where the guy forgot in his
calculations Earth's albedo and the fact is was round ...

 

I think we should avoid two misconceptions about stovers :

- there are stovers who do stoves only to limit climate change. It is a
preoccupation of Westerners living in rich countries, often motivated by
economic interests. They do not care about poor locals conditions of living.
They do not make products suitable to this people.

- there are stovers who are on the field but living in their ivory tower.
They do not see the big picture (global warming). They are only interested
in selling/distributing their stoves to the people, even if they are based
on polluting energies (charcoal).

 

You can both make user-friendly stoves, and which play a role in addressing
climate change issue. We shouldn't oppose the two things. On the contrary
they go hand-in-hand.

 

Best,

 

Xavier

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: mercredi 6 avril 2011 02:58
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 5

 

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

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Today's Topics:

 

   1. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

   2. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 (Nat of WorldStove)

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Message: 1

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 18:08:18 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <036801cbf3dd$f8aa8d80$e9ffa880$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 

Dear Ron 1 (how?s that?)

 

 

 

>The main addition I think important here is to respond to this statement
today in your reply to Otto.

 

Otto:  ">They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass
into charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of
the energy content in the fuel."

 

 

 

Crispin:  " I think the assumption is that people involved in the stove
business already know how charcoal is made."

 

 

RWL:   My assumption is that how it was made never appeared in anyone's
efficiency calculations - despite their probably not knowing for any
particular batch - and probably not caring.  

 

 

 

I have tackled this several times head on and no one responds, ever. I guess
either they agree that I am correct or they have no answer, or they don?t
care.

 

 

 

Unless the thermal efficiency of the entire operation is taken into account,
including the making, transport and use of charcoal and wood products, they
cannot be fairly compared. What I have seen instead is the repetition of the
unsupported statement that all charcoal production is bad, that it is all
wasteful, implying that no technology exists that can make it competitive
with wood at any scale, that the ?emissions? from charcoal making are high
and that this consists mostly of particulate matter that would not be
created if it were burned as wood. The argument is unbalanced.

 

 

 

Obviously these popular memes are bunk, or someone would show me
calculations that differ from those I have several times provided on this
this list. 

 

 

 

The transport of charcoal is very efficient per MJ, far better than wood and
it matters a lot. Many people transport huge amounts of wood using diesel
engined trucks and it is not efficient to do so. It is not an accident that
people in the biofuels energy business choose to transport charcoal instead
of wood. Because it is efficient.

 

 

 

Consider also the potential of technologies because there is no point in
looking backwards cherry-picking bad practises as some here seem to prefer,
railing against what is obviously sub-optimal, then talking only about
efficient wood and other processed biomass stoves. Why the prejudice against
charcoal? Because that is all it is. 

 

 

 

>The use of charcoal for cooking is an abomination and should be as much
outlawed as is the growing practice of outlawing charcoal production.  

 

 

 

That makes no sense to me both as an advocate of system efficiency and as a
use of law to enforce one?s misinformed whims on a largely poor,
long-suffering population.

 

 

 

>My own experience with charcoal in Sudan is that charcoal making/use has
ruined that fine country.  

 

 

 

The same can be said of cattle in many countries. Sudan suffers from far
more than the making of charcoal and it will continue to until the war is
resolved. War is not good for the environment. People do what they can to
survive, including selling charcoal made badly, on the run. Banning charcoal
in Sudan would be like banning food for rural dwellers hiding from the next
attack. Life is not so simple.

 

 

One can improve lots of things - maybe even buggy whips - but we should be
talking here on this list of something other than sub-optimum solutions.  

 

 

 

Name one. I have.

 

 

 

>With charcoal-making stoves, the users can make money - not expend it.  

 

 

 

Burying charcoal in the ground in not ?making money?. It is taking money
from huge international traders whose business case rests on the feeble and
shrinking claims that the world is going to roast from our emissions of CO2,
a fable inflamed daily by such as wish to profit from the trade. Statements
such as ?This is for the sake of the forests and of the atmosphere and
global warming? often underlie narrow personal agendas.  I am surrounded by
them. BTW it is now officially called ?climate disruption? to imply that
mankind has ?disrupted? the climate and made it go
hotter/cooler/wetter/drier/stormier/calmer all at once. And snow more, but
less.

 

 

 

Forests increased in area, should be harvested sustainably and the energy in
them used efficiently, without prejudice. 

 

 

 

The globe is presently not warming
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/05/global-temperature-still-headed-down-u
ah-negative-territory/#more-37362 and according the Dr Phil Jones (the
famous one from the Climate Research Unit, University of East Anglia) has
not been warming since 1995. I trust his opinion, he?s been keeping the
keys. 

 

 

 

If your stove technology selection is based on global temperatures you might
want to read the thermometer: ?The global temperature has fallen .653?C
(from +0.554 in March 2010 to -0.099 in March 2011) in just one year.? The
tropics have cooled 1 deg C in the past year as a 30 year cooling cycle
kicks in on cue.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/04/uah-temperature-update-for-march-2011-co
oler-still-0-10-deg-c/ and really good temperature graphs showing what the
heating season will be like in N America and Europe in the coming 30 years
is contained in the excellent presentation
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/05/courtillot-on-the-solar-uv-climate-con
nection/#more-37311 (Prof Vincent Courtillot, professor of geophysics at the
<http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit%25C3%25A9_Paris_VII_-_Diderot&prev=/search%3Fq%
3DVincent%2BCourtillot,%2BDirecteur,%2BUniversit%25C3%25A9%2BParis%2BDiderot
,%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhg-8U4AfU
lbHEZagPHonF1DwvgFig> University Paris-Diderot and Chair of paleomagnetism
and geodynamics of the
<http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_universitaire_de_France&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVince
nt%2BCourtillot,%2BDirecteur,%2BUniversit%25C3%25A9%2BParis%2BDiderot,%26hl%
3Den%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhUddtL3vfeKBqye
poBSxVzGvhonw> Institut Universitaire de France. We have to build stoves
that match the climate. We are responsible to know what on Earth is going
on.

 

 

 

Stovers: beware getting your snout too far into the carbon feeding trough.
It?s a day that will be followed by night.

 

 

 

Otto: it would be interesting if you could provide some calculations showing
whether Chris Adam and I are or are not correct about the system efficiency
and emissions of a modern charcoal making and cooking industry.

 

 

 

Stovers: there are thousands of documents railing against the evils of
smoky, inefficient paraffin (kerosene), but it turned out to be the stoves,
not the fuel.  Thousands more rail against coal as a rich, inevitable source
of PM, yet it is the stoves that fail to burn them. Other thousands of
articles scream about the choking, gasping women and babies who burn wood,
that medieval fuel of cavemen, yet it is the stoves that are the problem.
?Dung has only an 85% combustion efficiency!? yells another. Yet it was the
open fire that caused it.

 

 

 

Does anyone see a pattern here? All are solvable problems when correctly
described and addressed.

 

 

 

People blame goats for destroying the land. In fact they are the only
animals left that can live after the cattle have destroyed it with their
hooves and bulk. Goats are the clean-up crew, not the real problem.
Mismanaged forests become depleted, no matter what the ultimate use of the
biomass. We have to see the forest, not one dis-favoured tree.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Crispin

 

 

 

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Message: 2

Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 20:57:32 -0400

From: Nat of WorldStove <nataniele at aim.com>

To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4

Message-ID: <8CDC20CBEF8915D-14F4-6BB2 at webmail-m064.sysops.aol.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 

 

DearCrispin, Ron, James, Otto, Ronald, Richard and all,

 

 

I see nowthis wonderful email exchange and chinme in with some information.
In many of the ACP countires I have beenworking in there are many cast
aluminium charcoal stoves.  Whenever I am in a new location I try todocument
all available local stoves and I would be happy to provide jpegs to ofthese
aluminium stoves to anyone who might be helped by having them.

 

As for myown stoves, Ron is correct, several of our stoves have injection
moulded topand bottom plates.  We are currentlyworking on the newest
evolution of these and will be investing in new toolingthis year. 

 

 

Ronald is also correct in noting the thermal conducive properties
ofaluminium and if care is taken, it is entirely possible to produce a stove
witha flame that is above the melting point of aluminium with little or
noappreciable effect (for the first two to three years) on some of the
aluminium components. 

 

Best thingof all about ALis haw at the end of the stove?s life it can be
easily recycled into newstoves. 

 

Hope thishelps the discussion

 

Nat ofWorldStove

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org

To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

Sent: Tue, Apr 5, 2011 9:00 pm

Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4

 

 

Send Stoves mailing list submissions to

    stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

 
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

    stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org

 

You can reach the person managing the list at

    stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org

 

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."

 

 

Today's Topics:

 

   1. Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

   2. Re: Jamaican cooking (James Robinson)

   3. Re: Jamaican cooking (Otto Formo)

   4. Re: Jamaican cooking (Ron Larson)

   5. Re: Jamaican cooking (Ronald Hongsermeier)

   6. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

   7. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

   8. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

   9. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)

  10. Re: Jamaican cooking (Richard Stanley)

  11. Re: Jamaican cooking (rongretlarson at comcast.net)

  12. Re: Jamaican cooking (rongretlarson at comcast.net)

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Message: 1

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:37:50 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <01cd01cbf2ff$ca84bc70$5f8e3550$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Friends

 

Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

'traditional stove' which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas

told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at

one.

 

Thanks

Crispin

 

 

 

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Message: 2

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:02:26 +0200

From: James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <BANLkTim3-MBZqPXvN6pY2szcsLHf7Sj4mA at mail.gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

 

Hi Crispin,

 

There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

 

http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

 

<http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers

James Robinson

UJ SeTAR

 

On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

 

> Dear Friends

> 

> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas

> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at

> one.

> 

> Thanks

> Crispin

> 

> 

> 

> _______________________________________________

> Stoves mailing list

> 

> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

> 

> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

> 

>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

> 

> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

> 

> 

> 

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Message: 3

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:23:33 +0200 (MEST)

From: Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>

To: James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>, Discussion of biomass

    cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID:

    <17313093.1368.1301988213780.JavaMail.adm-moff at moffice2.nsc.no>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

Dear charcoal fans,

This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?

 

I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the
aluminium 

will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

 

Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into
charcoal 

will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy
content 

in the fuel.

Otto

 

> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]

> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST

> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]

> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

> 

> Hi Crispin,

> 

> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

> 

> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

> 

> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers

> James Robinson

> UJ SeTAR

> 

> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

> 

> > Dear Friends

> >

> > Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

> > ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der
Plas

> > told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look
at

> > one.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Crispin

> >

> >

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > Stoves mailing list

> >

> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

> >

> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

> >

> >
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

> >

> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/

> >

> >

> >

 

------------------------------

 

Message: 4

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 05:40:12 -0600

From: Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <54D38ADF-1CF0-41AF-857D-AA7F9981D7AF at comcast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

 

Otto and list

 

Good point below.  We probably can't outlaw the jiko (as evidenced by the 

failure of many countries to effectively outlaw char production).  However, 

maybe they can receive a big tax, with proceeds solely toward char-making
stove 

assistance.

 

I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type
stove.  I 

know of some use.

 

Ron

 

Sent from my iPad

 

On Apr 5, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no> wrote:

 

> Dear charcoal fans,

> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?

> 

> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 

aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

> 

> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 

charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the
energy 

content in the fuel.

> Otto

> 

>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]

>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST

>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
[stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]

>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

>> 

>> Hi Crispin,

>> 

>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

>> 

>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

>> 

>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers

>> James Robinson

>> UJ SeTAR

>> 

>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

>> 

>>> Dear Friends

>>> 

>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der
Plas

>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look
at

>>> one.

>>> 

>>> Thanks

>>> Crispin

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Stoves mailing list

>>> 

>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

>>> 

>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

>>> 

>>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

>>> 

>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

> _______________________________________________

> Stoves mailing list

> 

> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

> 

> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

> 

> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

> 

 

 

 

------------------------------

 

Message: 5

Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:32:00 +0200

From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <4D9B0BC0.5000907 at web.de>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

 

Dear Otto,

 

I am not a "Charcoal Fan", I push all my air through my lungs, but get 

enough oxidation done to do a little thinking.

 

However, not having seen the original results due to lack of time, 

wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the 

total system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal 

have decided to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are 

burning, they might even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling.

 

One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer 

capabilities make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. I'm 

also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the 

steel for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that 

out there might be another factor to add into your total equation of life.

 

regards,

 

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en

 

On 05.04.2011 09:23, Otto Formo wrote:

> Dear charcoal fans,

> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?

> 

> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 

aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

> 

> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 

charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the
energy 

content in the fuel.

> Otto

> 

>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]

>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST

>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
[stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]

>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

>> 

>> Hi Crispin,

>> 

>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

>> 

>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

>> 

>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers

>> James Robinson

>> UJ SeTAR

>> 

>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

>> 

>>> Dear Friends

>>> 

>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der
Plas

>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look
at

>>> one.

>>> 

>>> Thanks

>>> Crispin

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Stoves mailing list

>>> 

>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

>>> 

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>>> 

>>>
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.org

>>> 

>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

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>>> Stoves mailing list

>>> 

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>>> 

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>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> No virus found in this message.

>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

>>> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3550 - Release Date: 04/04/11

>>> 

 

 

 

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

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Message: 6

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:44:00 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <02a301cbf397$8814b1e0$983e15a0$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Otto

 

 

 

There are two devices which are quite different in performance: the Jiko

stove (I think the word jiko means 'charcoal stove') and the Improved Kenyan

Jiko (IKJ) which is the one to which most people refer when saying 'Jiko' or

'JIKO'. The IKJ is a ceramic lined jiko. It was developed by a school

teacher and made a commercially viable reality by Hugh Allen (a ceramics

specialist, presently head of a AT centre in Tanzania).

 

 

 

The Jamaican stove is made to have pots sit into the skirt and is not like

the IKJ at all in that sense. It is an interesting device: normally jikos

are not strong enough to take the pressure of having a pot inside the

ceramic because the clay is so poor and the fit not much better. 

 

 

 

>I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the

aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

 

 

 

I am not sure how improved it will be in the fuel use sense, but I am

interested in knowing what you think are the toxic emissions from melting

aluminum. That would be valuable to know.

 

 

 

I am not sure we can assume the fire will, with any ease, melt the body. I

recently filed a patent on an aluminum coal stove. J

 

 

 

>Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

 

 

 

Actually they said it was the thermal efficiency that is 40%. That is low

for a charcoal stove. However whether or not it was worth introducing

depends on the thermal efficiency of the baseline product. Might have been

15%.

 

 

 

>They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into

charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the

energy content in the fuel.

 

 

 

I think the assumption is that people involved in the stove business already

know how charcoal is made.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Crispin

 

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Message: 7

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:44:00 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <02b701cbf397$8b2685c0$a1739140$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

Thanks James

 

 

 

http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

 

For those who can?t see the link the info is below.

 

Robert v.d. Plas said it was about 20 years ago. The price seems to have a

bit of a ?development NGO involved? air to it: $120 ??? Good grief.

Mo?ambicanos make things more complex than that literally in an open field

and sell them for a few dollars. Same for Darfur. Huh.

 

>From the look of the tapers it seems it can be made using tropical West

African techniques (for example Liberian founders). The skill set difference

between the Sahelian and the coastal founders is remarkable for the fact

there is such a difference. The Sahelians would have no problem at all

making that stove. I have seen them make pots that require a 5 part mould,

produced ?in the bush? without even using a draw and cope.

 

Well that is an interesting design as well. If the pots were small, they

would drop into the taper and sit quite close to a very small fire, becoming

shrouded at the same time.

 

Regards

 

Crispin

 

 

 

New Improved Cookstove

 

[edit] <http://www.hedon.info/Edit+Stove&itemId=9373>  

 

Location, continent: 

Africa

America North

America South

Location, country: 

Jamaica 

Senegal 

Bolivia

Paraguay

 

Stove information

 

Stove ID: JAM2hm

Model: Improved

Application: Households

Type of stove: Portable

Fuel: Charcoal

 

Construction

 

Materials: Metal

Mix

Other metal

Dimensions: 220

Construction method: Device makers: Local founders

Construction method :Casting small founders use pattern provided by the

project, together with moulding box and sand. Scrap aluminium is melted in

furnace and poured into pattern, which is placed in moulding box with sand.

 

Dissemination

 

Availability: Commercially available

Distributors: Through private-sector involvment: wholesalers, retailers and

hardware merchants, artisans.

 

Price in US$: 120 (1993: 1 US$: 23.8 J$) 

Start date: Tue 31 of Dec., 1991

Project/Program or commercial distribution: Approximately 1,800 improved

cookstoves sold through project personnel, manufacturers and private sector.

(all figures 1993)

 

Number of stoves sold or distributed: 1800

 

Performance

 

Efficiency: (lab. tests) 40%

Fuel saving: (field test) 30%

 

Contact details 

 

Address: New Improved Cookstove Project. Ministry of Public Utilities Mining

and Energy, 36 Trafalgar Road, Kingston 10, Jamaica, West Indies

 

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Message: 8

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:51:43 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <02c101cbf3a0$fbf1b5f0$f3d521d0$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 

Dear Ron

 

 

 

>?wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the

total system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal have

decided to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are burning,

they might even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling.

 

 

 

This was looked at very carefully by Peter Coughlin who makes the POCA, the

technology underlying the recent capture of a major award. The benefits of

saving even a small amount of charcoal, say 15%, are quite large in terms of

the current practises and the total emissions. It certainly pays (in carbon

trade) better to save charcoal than to save wood.

 

 

 

>One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer capabilities

make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. 

 

 

 

Same for copper. Even using a cutting torch it is difficult to melt a block

of copper. Steel can be melted with char if you have a fan (as Philips found

out!) so it is more about heat balance and flow than the material.

 

 

 

>I'm also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the

steel for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that out

there might be another factor to add into your total equation of life.

 

 

 

A consideration here is that once produced, aluminum is easily recycled with

a very low energy cost which is why roadside producers can turn out products

with almost no equipment. It is not only the life cycle of the product that

should be considered by the life cycle of the material itself.

 

 

Crispin von Suchenachgutenschwei?er

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

 

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en

 

 

 

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Message: 9

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:51:43 -0400

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <02cc01cbf3a0$fc985630$f5c90290$@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear Ron

 

>I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type

stove.  I know of some use.

 

I am interested to know what you heard. It is a design that is ripe for

inserting three curved clay tiles, n'est-ce pas?

 

Regards

Crispin

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

 

Message: 10

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 08:44:47 -0700

From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID: <2B327608-8A6D-4B1E-9504-C18578A190DF at legacyfound.org>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

Otto,

.......... shhhhhhhhh !

with kind regards,

Richard Stanley

 

On Apr 5, 2011, at 12:23 AM, Otto Formo wrote:

 

> Dear charcoal fans,

> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?

> 

> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 

aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

> 

> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 

charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the
energy 

content in the fuel.

> Otto

> 

>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]

>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST

>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
[stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]

>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

>> 

>> Hi Crispin,

>> 

>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

>> 

>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

>> 

>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers

>> James Robinson

>> UJ SeTAR

>> 

>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

>> 

>>> Dear Friends

>>> 

>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a

>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der
Plas

>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look
at

>>> one.

>>> 

>>> Thanks

>>> Crispin

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Stoves mailing list

>>> 

>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

>>> 

>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

>>> 

>>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

>>> 

>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

> _______________________________________________

> Stoves mailing list

> 

> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

> 

> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org

> 

> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

> http://www.bioenergylists.org/

> 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

 

Message: 11

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 16:09:23 +0000 (UTC)

From: rongretlarson at comcast.net

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID:

 
<274543516.3587251.1302019763630.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.co
mcast.net>

    

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 

Crispin eta l 

 

I was thinking of Nat Mulcahy's Lucia - where I have seen aluminum end caps
(and 

steel - not sure what is current in his thinking). 

 

Ron 

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com> 

To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>


Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 8:51:43 AM 

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking 

 

Dear Ron 

 

>I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type 

stove. I know of some use. 

 

I am interested to know what you heard. It is a design that is ripe for 

inserting three curved clay tiles, n'est-ce pas? 

 

Regards 

Crispin 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________ 

Stoves mailing list 

 

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 

stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org 

 

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page 

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org 

 

 

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 

http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 

 

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Message: 12

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:13:42 +0000 (UTC)

From: rongretlarson at comcast.net

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>,  Crispin Pemberton-Pigott

    <crispinpigott at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking

Message-ID:

 
<1478077999.3592077.1302023622424.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.c
omcast.net>

    

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 

 

 

Crispin: 

 

I spent some time on this before realizing there were two "Rons" in here and


that I was not the intended recipient of this one below. I am sehrschlecht 

Schwei?er . 

 

The main addition I think important here is to respond to this statement
today 

in your reply to Otto. 

 

 

 

Otto: ">They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass
into 

charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the
energy 

content in the fuel." 

 

 

 

Crispin: " I think the assumption is that people involved in the stove
business 

already know how charcoal is made." 

RWL: My assumption is that how it was made never appeared in anyone's
efficiency 

calculations - despite their probably not knowing for any particular batch -
and 

probably not caring. Now it is time to care and to include char production 

efficiency in Jiko efficiency statements. This is for the sake of the
forests 

and of the atmosphere and global warming.. The use of charcoal for cooking
is an 

abomination and should be as much outlawed as is the growing practice of 

outlawing charcoal production. My own experience with charcoal in Sudan is
that 

charcoal making/use has ruined that fine country. 

One can improve lots of things - maybe even buggy whips - but we should be 

talking here on this list of something other than sub-optimum solutions.
With 

charcoal-making stoves, the users can make money - not expend it. The
made-char 

should be put in the ground - as is being done for all (?) :Lucia stoves. 

The subject of aluminum vs steel vs ceramics is great. 

 

Ron Holzkohler Larson 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com> 

To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>


Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 8:51:43 AM 

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking 

 

 

 

 

Dear Ron 

 

 

 

>?wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the
total 

system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal have
decided 

to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are burning, they
might 

even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling. 

 

 

 

This was looked at very carefully by Peter Coughlin who makes the POCA, the 

technology underlying the recent capture of a major award. The benefits of 

saving even a small amount of charcoal, say 15%, are quite large in terms of
the 

current practises and the total emissions. It certainly pays (in carbon
trade) 

better to save charcoal than to save wood. 

 

 

 

>One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer capabilities


make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. 

 

 

 

Same for copper. Even using a cutting torch it is difficult to melt a block
of 

copper. Steel can be melted with char if you have a fan (as Philips found
out!) 

so it is more about heat balance and flow than the material. 

 

 

 

>I'm also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the
steel 

for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that out there
might 

be another factor to add into your total equation of life. 

 

 

 

A consideration here is that once produced, aluminum is easily recycled with
a 

very low energy cost which is why roadside producers can turn out products
with 

almost no equipment. It is not only the life cycle of the product that
should be 

considered by the life cycle of the material itself. 

 

 

Crispin von Suchenachgutenschwei?er 

 

 

 

 

 

regards, 

 

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en 

 

 

_______________________________________________ 

Stoves mailing list 

 

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 

stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org 

 

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page 

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org 

 

 

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 

http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 

 

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************************************

 

 

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