[Stoves] Fire Stump / stump-incuts

Thu Jul 28 12:50:30 CDT 2011

Hi Tom and thanks for the inquiry and the info. I am going to paste below a copy of a letter I sent out earlier as a way to try to explain in my very basic language what seems to be different about what we have done, I hope this helps. I have been in contact with Mr. Scott (whom I think has a genius level idea where the "factory in a box" program is aimed at both environmental as well as unemployment issues). If my stove could be tested in his lab I do not know. I will be undergoing EPA cert testing as I continue my growth process....governed mostly by funding (out of pocket). Do you know of any ways in the mean time to get testing done as I am expecting I will have to wait until the $20,000 usd is in the budget. Are some of these contacts you mentioned places where I could get some preliminary numbers?
Roger.

Thank you Ron for trying to bring this to a level I can hopefully 
communicate on. I will try to respond in kind. Here is what I do know 
for a fact. I started cleaning chimneys at age 18. The average stove at 
the time was reportedly dumping 60 to 70 grams pm10 particulate 
emissions per hour, per stove, into our airshed. This information was 
supplied by the EPA who wanted to see these stoves replaced with 
certified stoves with a maximum emission of 4.5 grams/hour.  What 
happened in the homes of my 4000 customers over a 26 year period was 
that these new stoves cut consumption in half, better in some cases as I
 tried to educate good habits. This nearly destroyed my chimney cleaning
 revenue's, but I was convinced that CONSUMPTION was the enemy. Many of 
these clients went from six cord a year to three, and cleanings went 
from 2 to 3 a year to once every 2 to 3 years and some longer.
So 
what changed.....the fuel types stayed the same....just less of it. Why?
 the heat generated by the primary fire was almost un important in the 
overall production of the stove. What was important was the heat 
generated by the secondary fire, the burning of the gasses from the 
primary fire. Information also supplied by the EPA was the overall 
average efficiency ratings. They lumped all pre EPA stoves in the 20% 
range ( I wonder if this is what the average yurt owner in Mongolia has 
for the $65.00 they reportedly pay, I would guess this is correct) 
todays stoves are pushing 80%. 
So now let me pose this question in a
 different light. One of the biggest issues facing mankind is depletion,
 correct? depletion of the rain forest for example. The biggest key 
factor in my experiance to stopping our air quality issues was slowing 
consumption, which in turn slowed emissions. Why could not this simple 
minded approach work to help the Amazon. As I understand the 
process......,more trees needing c.o. to exist and giving off oxygen as a
 by-product means we slow down the rate at which we cut down this 
forest, by conserving fuel. The same must be true then with the coal. I 
hate the idea that that much coal is used......and if the information I 
got from a local to Mongolia's capitol city is even near true than this 
technology could only reduce the appetite.
You mentioned temperature 
ranges at the flue pipe having a correlation to c.o. releases. I believe
 it had to do with the number 200 deg c which my converter tells me is 
97 deg f, correct? The flue gas temps I have recorded by using both 
thermocouple as well as infra red testing equipment have been quite 
consistant at 350 degrees F. or better, with a top temp of 450 deg f.   
converted to Celsius would be 176 to 232 deg c.  This might be low in 
the eyes those not understanding that first these gasses have been 
forced through our secondary combustion system at temps ranging from 800
 deg f (426 c) to 1550.deg f (843 deg c.) .  The heat output of our unit
 is almost all from the secondary burn process. When I shut off the 
primary air, the fuel load "smolders" producing the fuel for the 
secondary fire, giving us a basic gasifier/reburner affect. While I 
don't have the mathematical ability to explain it any better than 
this....I can tell you that it really does work.  
I fear that too 
much complexity has blinded the issue......so I say keep it simple 
stovers (the kiss principle) use less pollute less. It certainly can't 
hurt to burn less of whatever fuel is used and burning it hotter is the 
paramount. I simply created equipment which does both.
I hope this helps you understand more of what I have been trying to communicate all along.

           Thanks again, Roger and Bridget Lehet. 

From: tmiles at trmiles.com
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:09:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fire Stump /  stump-incuts

Roger, You have probably discovered that you have landed in a nest of several hundred vigorous and rigorous cooking stoves enthusiasts from around the world. This discussion has been rolling for more than 15 years and includes everything from shop tinkering to substantial field experience.  Have you been in contact with Peter Scott at Burn Design Lab on Vashon? http://www.burndesignlab.org/ They are about 10 minutes north of you just off the Vashon highway. Peter can show you what our challenges are and how we approach them. We don’t have densified fuels like bricks or fire logs to work with. We have miscellaneous and low quality fuels including everything from corncobs to coal. (I have burned Washington coal.) We have to deal with the smoke and gases all during the “once you get up to temperature” time. So you may have found good performance at a peak temperature but stove emissions and efficiency performance has to follow the whole cooking experience from the time you light the fire. We are concerned with fuel efficiency but also with health effects of particulates and gases.  There are several gigbytes of information on the website that we maintain to complement this discussion http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/   Puget Sound has been a rich source of ideas and development for improved cooking stoves, solar cookers and retained heat cookers. Each year in January about 150 of us from around the world gather at Northwest University in Kirkland, WA, for the ETHOS conference. You will find much information in the conference proceedings. http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/proceedings.php    Art Donnelly’s Seachar.org project is in Seattle, developing biochar making stoves for developing countries. Organizations in Mount Vernon have developed sophisticated pellet burning stoves for developed, and now developing, countries. Larry Dobson on Whidbey Island has developed stove concepts for many applications for more than 30 years. Masonry heaters and cookers have been developed on Lopez Island and installed in Central America. A couple of us on Shaw Island are heavily engaged in improved cooking stoves and heating devices.  Your heating device must, of course, be certified by EPA if you intend to sell it in the US, Canada, Europe, NZ, etc. Testing methods and standards are easily found and there are certified labs in the region that to do that work. New ASTM and EPA wood fired boiler standards also apply. These are often discussed on woodheat at yahoo.com http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/  There is an interesting, high efficiency, cordwood boiler being developed now in Seattle.  There is much to learn from this group but we work on clear descriptions, detailed photos and carefully recorded data. We discuss a wide range of technologies from basic flames to industrial applications but they all relate to clean and efficient combustion.   Thanks for your participation Regards, Tom MilesOwnerstoves at bioenergylists.orgwww.stoves.bioenergylists.org      

Jan 12 2011 in Business of Boating by Deborah Bach1ShareRoger Lehet with a prototype of the stove he spent about six months developing, which is now being manufactured for sale.
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