[Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal

Wed Apr 24 12:37:36 CDT 2013

List. Cc Kevin

  Sorry, no apologies on this one.  

  The issue on the table is whether char-making stoves have an important connection to AGW.  Since you and a few others disagree and continue to try to distance the two topics, I think it valid to ask if it is because you/they are a climate denier?  ( Kevin and I have had off- list discussions, but he is free to say otherwise anytime on his AGW views.)

   To me it is important to try to educate deniers, and analyze their reasons for denial. I just can't comprehend such a view in 2013.

Ron

On Apr 22, 2013, at 8:05 AM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:

> Dear Ron
>  
> I would suggest that your approach, as presented below, is  some combination of an Ad Hominum Attack, and an un-scientific witch hunt. The Bioenergy lists should be a source of Truth and Fact, based on Science, but you persist in tainting Stove and Agricultural issues involving char with AGW, Carbon Credit, Climate Change, and "Denier" considerations.
>  
> You could become a "Friend of Biochar" if you worked toward understanding how biochar can be used to advantage by Farmers and Growers, in that if Farmers and Growers find out how to use biochar economically, it will be used on a widespread basis in Agriculture.   Your AGW interests will then be advanced by "Market Pull".
>  
> If you disagree with the views of List Members, please do so by refuting their views with palpable evidence showing why you feel they are wrong, and not with ad hominum attacks.
>  
> Thank you.
>  
> Kevin Chisholm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ron
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; Paul Olivier
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal
> 
> Paul and list:
> 
>    Thanks for a very complete response.  This is to hope Crispin will respond fully.
> If so, I ask him three more  to add to yours
> 
>      a.  why he has chosen to NOT join the sister biochar lists, given the heavy emphasis there as well in char-making stoves.
> 
>      b.  whether much of his knowledge on biochar has come from WUWT.  If not what source (i am asking for a few specifics -not generalities) has he for his statement below
>> There have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close scrutiny.
>> 
> 
>     c.  Does he see the connection I do between his being a "climate denier" and being a skeptic on biochar?
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
> 
>> See comments below.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Jeff
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks for that contribution.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The point of Paul’s description is that in the circumstances where he is, it works. It works on several levels and it will probably continue to work for a long time.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The scenario was discussed on this list several times before, going back years, but there was nowhere that all the ingredients were present. One of the things that makes the rice hull char attractive is the existence, on a big scale apparently, of land that benefits from the addition of the char, and growing of crops that benefit from it.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> There have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close scrutiny.
>> 
>> 
>> Crispin, I take issue with this statement. The biochar research that I have been involved with (that is, biochar from my gasifiers) has been done in three different countries, and it involved seven universities. More than 20 experiments have been carried out, and in none of these experiments did biochar have negative effects. Contrary to what you might believe, this research does stand up to close scrutiny. These people are not just reading about biochar, but they are actually doing biochar research. I know many of these researchers, and they are not engaged in deceit. They are trying to help poor farmers understand the benefits of biochar.
>>  
>> The same holds for permaculture
>> 
>> 
>> What's wrong with permaculture? 
>> and improved stove and lots of things, so there is nothing ‘special’ about char, it is just that people get enthusiastic about something and wish it were universally true.
>> 
>> 
>> Crispin, it is hard for me to believe that you actually wrote this!
>> How do you know that that there is nothing special about biochar?
>> Is this your field of expertise?
>> Have you actually been involved in biochar research?
>> I strongly suggest that you read the following: 
>> 
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf
>> http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm
>> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm
>> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm
>> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm
>> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf
>> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm
>> 
>> If you really want to understand the benefits of biochar, please read this book:
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf
>>   
>> The people who wrote and edited this book are not charlatans. They are not deceitful. They are as good in their science as anyone could possibly be. 
>> Crispin, the moment you start doing biochar research of your own, then you might have something serious to say in this regard.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> No problem, we can live with filters on information to sift out what is beneficial and in what circumstances the claims how true. Independent investigation will support it if it is.
>> 
>> 
>> Then do the independent investigation yourself. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As I understand if, the Japanese have being doing this the longest and they are very circumscribed about what claims are made for biochar.
>> 
>> 
>> Some of the best biochar research was done by the Japanese (Ogawa et al) back in the early 90's. They showed how biochar positively impacts the growth of AM fungi. This is explained in the book by Lehmann and Joseph.
>>  
>> It is particular soils, particular crops and particular treatment of the char (temperature, species) that are in combination, what gives improved results. This theme constantly appears in the literature. As has been pointed out, just randomly putting char into soil can have negative consequences – it depends on the soil conditions. The last thing we need is a case of the char causing more harm than good while claims are made that it is improving things. The stove community should be working with agricultural trials experts.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I read in the past that adding rice hull ash to rice fields is beneficial – maybe because the silica is extra-available, don’t know. Not my field.
>> 
>> 
>> If this is not your field, then on what authority do you base your statements about rice hull biochar or rice hull ash?
>> Again, I challenge you: do the research, as Preston, Leng and Shackley have done.
>> What upsets me here is that I know well some of the people who have been conducting research with rice hull biochar.
>> They know agriculture quite well, they have impeccable scientific credentials, and they, unlike you, are experts in this field.
>> Then you come along, without any basis in fact, and question their research as not being scientific.
>> Wow! 
>>  
>> I am just glad we have a working example of using gas and char that makes economic sense.
>> 
>> 
>> It only makes economic sense, Crispin, if biochar plays a positive role in promoting plant and animal growth. If biochar does not play a positive role, we might as well burn it.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Crispin
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>> 
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
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