[Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and development]

lh cheng lhkind at gmail.com
Thu Nov 30 20:55:37 CST 2017 

Dear Dr Anderson and Stovers,

>   >Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> deaths.

this is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine about
it. many details. it is called "Gong Chan Feng( wind of Communism)" by my
father and mother and their generation, called "public kitchen" movement
also, if any smoke arise in any home, government officials would rush in
and destroy the stove, pots or dishes, these kind of thing is forbidden in
home, and all confiscated.  in some villages, no one survived everyone
died, in silence. if there were some smokeless clear-burn stove applied,
maybe more people could survive? actually, technology doesn't matter at
all, in a world of lies, technology only serves and helps lies.

>   >Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the
> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that
> heavy        >construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi
> might be able to shed some light on this.

yes, heavy is standard, and by DIY or by acquaintance artisan ( I think USA
is the same). thin metal is too light too toppleable, light-weight metal
burning stove is too danger for kids and woman and house, just in my
opinion, many people might think the same way. something in TLUD stove is
contrary to instinct, when something go wrong, it will be very frastrating.

> >What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have difficulty
> imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.


I have no clear idea. maybe just some modifications on traditional family
stove. insulation, a glass door for fuel-feed entry. adding a secondary air
tube( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1xhMmpsFA ). I think these three
will bring miraculous improvement. but it must be done by themselves or by
their friends or artisan nearby, or maybe factory can manufacture and sell
glass door, insulation material and air tube.

I am happy to be here.

best regards

2017-11-30 23:05 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:

> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
> about this stove, that might be fine.
>
> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>
>
> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion Stove
> ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a cultural
> thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is enough.
>
> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the acceptance
> of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that heavy
> construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be able
> to shed some light on this.
>
>
> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
> design spread among people, and people help each other.
>
> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have difficulty
> imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.
>
>
> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
> have memories.
>
> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> deaths.
>
> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your insights.
>
> Paul
>
>
> best regards
>
>
> 2017-11-30 2:13 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Paul:
>>
>> It's not worth getting excited over this paper, though I explain below I
>> wholeheartedly commend the authors what ought to have been Stoves Lesson 1
>> forty years ago. (They even refer to Manibog 1984, which started me off on
>> formal research in stoves.)
>>
>> I note
>>
>> "The existing available semi-gasifier biomass cookstoves all lacked
>> user-desired functions such as auto-ignition and flame adjustment. Field
>> visits to homes near Beijing revealed that most homes with semi-gasifier
>> stoves had suspended use due to breakage or difficulty using them for
>> cooking. We identified several design features that led to frequent
>> breakage, namely cracking of the inner combustion chamber wall and stove
>> grate blockage from slag that formed due to high temperature combustion and
>> inefficient ash removal. In addition, most semi-gasifer cookstoves required
>> fuel loading from the top, a feature that made it impossible to add fuel
>> during cooking and, according to stove users, greatly limited its
>> functionality to meet daily cooking needs."
>>
>>
>> Is it enough to say "Decades of disappointing stove intervention programs
>> highlight the need for new approaches and development efforts"? Based on a
>> study of 16 homes over a few weeks in summer-time with "structured and
>> semi-structured interviews with primary cooks at 2 d and 6 weeks
>> post-installation of the prototype stoves"?
>>
>> The conclusion "Our proposed design strategy can be applied to other
>> stove development initiatives in China and other countries." should be read
>> in combination with "The unique features of the particular semi-gasifier,
>> biomass cookstove discussed here need not be directly transferable to other
>> regions in China. Rather, the user-centered, iterative engineering design
>> process presented could be replicated in other provinces and regions to
>> identify optimal stove design that is responsive to the local context."
>>
>> Still, the most relevant observation - which need not have required this
>> study - is simply this:
>>
>> " Stove designs (Tryner et al 2014 and 2016) that over-emphasize
>> technical performance early in the stove development process limit the
>> extent to which user input obtained later in the process—if sought—can lead
>> to stove design modification. The user-centered and iterative engineering
>> design approach we present prioritized local users’ preferences and
>> aspirations, and sought to combine user input with high technical
>> performance. Our results suggest that valuable engineering insights are
>> gained in the early stages of stove design through targeted field-based
>> data collection that yield information unattainable in the laboratory."
>>
>>
>> Which is why the WHO/ISO TC-285 exercise is so immature, it needs to be
>> aborted.
>>
>> I wonder who would digest and apply this lesson of user-centered
>> iterative engineering method. I suspect you have, and perhaps others can
>> claim such a trail of experience instead of just reporting WBT-based
>> performance metrics as in the BAMG Catalog of stoves for GACC.
>>
>> I am afraid this paper might end up like Manibog's and various other
>> stove evaluation reports that have repeatedly said, essentially, "User
>> matters." It is only after determining the service standard (cooking and
>> other tasks desired by the user) and the objective of an intervention (not
>> necessarily limited to the efficiency and pollutant emissions, and in some
>> contexts not even these) that a stove designer can go about designing a
>> product.
>>
>> Large programs of such research, guided by competent and unbiased
>> proponents., ought to have been generated when GACC began. It is still not
>> too late; GACC just needs to be placed in a proper home, independent of its
>> US masters.
>>
>> Nikhil
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> Not correct.   The stove type was not TLUD.  It was essentially a
>>> trickle-feed forced air pellet heater (as in the home heating units) but
>>> made at the size of a cooking stove.   Nice work, but not a TLUD and no
>>> real chance to make charcoal because the pellets are burned to ash under
>>> the streams of forced air.   It might become very successful.   Good
>>> approach to designing changes.  But also heavy and expensive compared to
>>> the TLUD stoves that are currently having great success in West Bengal.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>>
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>
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