[Stoves] Aprovecho's ISO certificates

[Nikhil Desai]

Crispin:

Trustworthiness does not come by claims alone. The force of law - and of
underwriters of liability insurance policies - comes into play in countries
with a reliable judiciary. Here in the US, OSHA, EPA certify, approve, or
recognize UL and other certification bodies for example for commercial
steam cookers
<https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=recognized_bodies_list.show_RCB_search_results>
.

I believe EPA did go to UL for certifying cookstoves. Jim Jetter, John
Mitchell, or Susan Annenberg ought to be able to tell why that didn't work.
>From among any number of reasons, I can imagine liability considerations if
in fact EPA did not have jurisdiction over cookstoves in the US and could
not issue a regulation about it saying UL is an approved lab and can issue
certification under xxx or yyy authority of a statute.

Maybe, after the ISO issues standards of performance from TC-285, US would
incorporate them in law and then approve UL, Aprovecho, or other suitable
body for testing and certification.  Unlike some other countries or some of
the states here, the Federal government can do only so much as authorized
by law, not just do anything it is not explicitly prohibited from doing.

When a product manufacturer's claims fail, the buyer ought to have legal
recourse in addition to merely voting with money. The manufacturer then
cannot hide by merely appealing to UL certification. A court would hold UL
liable if it made a finding that UL used improper protocol - not an
"industry standard" - or wrong equipment.

Then too, a government may not bother with approving or recognizing a
testing, certifying, or labeling organization if its citizens are not at
risk. Free citizenry means able to rely on each other, but also able to go
to a court of equity.

Yes, "Anyone can claim to be following any protocol they like." What do you
think - Gold Standard would be next, or GACC, or me?

UNF could. If it is an "international organization", it may be above US
jurisdiction for certain liabilities. I will have to look up the IO law.




Nikhil



On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear Xavier
>
> The ISO is not a testing organisation and does not issue certificates. No
> one can issue an 'ISO Certificate' because they don't exist.
>
> The ISO does not check the validity of certificates issued by anyone.
> Anyone can claim to be following any protocol they like. What is at issue
> is if the organisation is able to give trustworthy results. That's why labs
> get certified like UL etc so people believe them.
>
> I think Tom Miles can comment on how a lab gets certified for a
> *particular* test like an EPA stove test. ‎
>
> The only available facts are that there is a Draft ISO standard available
> (now, not before). The LEMS hood system (which some labs use) was analysed
> by Berkeley and said to be able to rate stoves as high as 'tier 3.5'. That
> study is now three years old.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> I am quite amazed that the Aprovecho is still claiming on its website to
> be able to deliver « ISO certificates » to clients who pay 3000 USD for a
> testing session.
>
> http://aprovecho.org/portfolio-item/stove-testing/
>
>
>
> Is there such thing as an ISO certificate when there exist no ISO
> standards for cookstoves?
>
>
>
> To me, there are only three explanations possible:
>
> ·         either the Aprovecho knows something we don’t
>
> ·         either it is a fraudulent claim
>
> ·         either it is a big mistake
>
>
>
> I might be missing something, anyone can shed a light?
>
>
>
> I put Dean Still in copy as well, Dean, maybe you can clarify that?
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Xavier
>
>
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