[Stoves] Calculating cooking costs and char costs ----Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON offsets and drawdown
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Wed Sep 13 21:53:50 CDT 2017
Kevin,
Thanks for the spreadsheet. This is an interesting situation where
calculated numbers are not matching with some human activities about the
value of charcoal.
This discussion is only with the Biochar group, so I am adding the
Stoves Listserv and attaching the spreadsheet.
Notes;
The use of BTU/LB in columns H and I should be in the green (calculated)
values and the corresponding metric units (which you provide) should be
the yellow variables that can be entered. Please.
I notice that changes in the Value of unburned char/kg (C23 ) is
essentially linked to the cost of fuel wood (C5) , and therefore
virtually dictate the conclusion of carbon credit pricing needed (C28
). So, the price stays quite high.
****************
A. Consider the case of the cook who has no real use for the char,
which means that the cost of fuel is 100% allocated to the cooking, and
the resultant char has zero value. To that cook there is no trade-off
about char being used for cooking other meals. Selling the char is
"pure profit", whether it is a calculated value of $0.16/kg (as in C26)
or merely $0.12/kg as in Deganga, India, or only $0.08/kg which is still
better than nothing.
B. Current "traditional" cooking with charcoal that is produced by
generally inefficient "traditional" char-making methods would have a
char yield (C6) of between 10% (burning too much to ash) and 25%
(leaving volatiles in the char, or even some incomplete
pyrolysis/torrification).
C. But for those people who produce traditional char, the "cost of fuel
wood" (C5) could be as low as zero (illegal cutting or destructive
cutting) or some notional value of the time spent to make the charcoal.
Others need to comment also.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 9/13/2017 12:28 PM, kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca wrote:
>
> Hi Paul
>
> Oops!! I forgot to attach it. Here it is now…
>
> If you find any errors, please let me know, and I’ll correct them.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*biochar at yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:34 AM
> *To:* kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca; biochar at yahoogroups.com; 'Hugh
> McLaughlin' <hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON offsets
> and drawdown
>
> Kevin,
>
> I did not find any access to the spreadsheet.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 9/12/2017 11:35 PM, kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca
> <mailto:kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul
>
> I built a little spreadsheet that allows one to vary inputs, to
> see what the minimum “Carbon Credit Payment” should be for the
> Cook to be justified in selling the char that a TLUD produces,
> rather than burning it as fuel, to reduce his need for wood purchase.
>
> Please check out the Spread Sheet, with various input values, to
> confirm whether or not it makes sense.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>[mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, September 11, 2017 4:02 PM
> *To:* Hugh McLaughlin <hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>
> <mailto:hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>; biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON
> offsets and drawdown
>
> Hugh and Kevin,
>
> First to Hugh: Why do you write
>
> $0.10/kg is a more reasonable assumption.
>
> when that is what Kevin actually said.
>
> Then to Kevin: Actually, it the char yield is 20% per kg of fuel
> (closer to actual than is 25% or 30%), then the number becomes $US
> 250 per tonne of char = $US250/3.42 = $US 73.10 per tonne of CO2
> equivalent.
>
> To all: As reported in the Deganga Case Study (page 4, 3rd
> paragraph), in that case study the people were actually paying
> US$0.075 per kg of firewood. And they burn 3 to 4 kg per day
> (which is less than half of baseline fuel consumption). Note: 4
> kg of firewood at 20% char yield would be about 0.8 kg of char per
> day (matches the measured quantities of char purchased from the
> households).
>
> And they were receiving payment of $0.12 per kg of char via the
> "Earn while you cook" arrangements (page 4, second paragraph from
> the bottom of the page), which would be $0.04 per 0.3 kg (just
> citing Kevin's initial number for some comparison) or $0.024 per
> 0.2 kg (the approximate actual char production per day of cooking.).
>
> Can we use some of these above numbers and send a revised
> statement, please?
>
> And if the point is still
>
> it is more advantageous for the Cook to burn it [the char] for
> another meal.
>
> then why are the people so delighted with the charcoal buyback?
> ( ?? cultural reasons??? such as not having a tradition of cooking
> with charcoal at the household level (true) ... or their
> perception of the value of a few cents is greater than their
> perception of the expense of the cooking task? ... or some other
> reason(s) ???
>
> All are welcome to comment, please.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 9/11/2017 1:22 PM, Hugh McLaughlin wrote:
>
> ERRATA: $10/tonne is $0.01/kg.
>
> If there is any transportation, $100/tonne or the basis used
> for the calculation: $0.10/kg is a more reasonable assumption.
>
> Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE
>
> CTO - NextChar.com
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2017 2:03 PM,
> "kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca [biochar]"
> <mailto:kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca[biochar]><biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>wrote:
>
> Hi Paul
>
> Assume that such fuelwood costs $US10 per tonne, or $US.10 per kg.
>
> Assume that 1 kg of such wood is “burned” in a TLUD, to cook a
> meal, and that there is .25 kg char yield.
>
> Assume also that the char could be used to cook a second meal.
>
> The cost of fuel per meal is thus $US.10, if the char is not
> used for cooking, OR, it is $US.05 if the char is subsequently
> used to cook a second meal.
>
> Thus, if somebody gave the Cook $US.05 for the .3 kg of char,
> the Cook could be “revenue neutral”.
>
> Thus, the cost of “Carbon Credits” that reaches the actual
> Cook should be a minimum of $US.05/.3 kg char = $US.167 per kg
> char, or $US167 per tonne char = $US167/3.42 = approximately
> $US48.80 per tonne of CO2 equivalent.
>
> CONCLUSION: With the costing and performance assumptions shown
> above, unless the Cook gets more than the equivalent of
> $US48.80 per tonne CO2 carbon credits, it is not advantageous
> for the Cook to “sell” the char… it is more advantageous for
> the Cook to burn it for another meal.
>
> Does this make sense to you?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>[mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, September 11, 2017 11:53 AM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>; Doc Anderson
> <psanders at ilstu.edu> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON
> offsets and drawdown
>
> Dear Shengar,
>
> Thank you for the input.
>
> World figures are that about 3 billion persons have meals
> prepared on solid fuel (mostly biomass). Family size
> (especially HOUSEHOLD size, referring to the number of people
> who eat together) should be 5 or 6, which would put the
> number of households between 600 million and 500 million.
> Those are the numbers that I prefer to use.
>
> I agree with nearly a kilo of char produced per day per TLUD
> stove (confirmed in Deganga, India, study). 365 days would
> yield about a third of on ton of char per household. 3
> household become a ton/yr. 30,000 HH would be 10,000 tons.
> 300,000,000 HH (about half of the needed cookstoves) would be
> 100,000,000 tons.
>
> So it would take 10 years to reach one GIGA ton, which is
> 1,000,000,000 tons. (Please check my math.)
>
> In the Drawdown project, the time period is 2020 to2050, which
> is 3 decade, or "potentially" 3 gigatons of char sequestration.
>
> 3 GT is only 1/5th of the GT calculated for ALL cookstoves,
> and over 3 times more that what was calcualted for ALL biochar
> by 2050. Clearly there is more to the drawdown calculations
> than the simple numbers above.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>
> On 9/11/2017 1:27 AM, shengar shengar at aol.com
> <mailto:shengar at aol.com>[biochar] wrote:
>
> The ballpark numbers I think Albert Bates has crunched but
> I play with these numbers:
>
> About 1 billion households cook with biomass, so if all
> had TLUDs, producing about a kilo per day of biochar that
> would be some one million tons per day, 365 million tons
> per year, a gigaton of CO2 every 3 years. (accounting for
> other greenhouse gas reductions when biochar is put in soil)
> And increased rates of soil carbon sequestration
>
> On Sep 10, 2017 at 9:29 AM, <Paul Anderson
> psanders at ilstu.edu [biochar]
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Stovers and Biochar folk,
>
> The financial part of advancing the TLUD stove
> situation (IMO) keeps coming back to the value of
> carbon offsets generated. But that topic is too thinly
> related to the purpose of the Stoves Listserv or the
> Biochar Listserve. So I will sending this message.
>
> The _stoves-related carbon-issues discussion
> _(generating carbon credits, global drawdown, etc)
> need discussion. So I request some assistance to find
> where this can be discussed. Does such a place already
> exist?
>
> Also, who among us want to be into that OTHER
> discussion? Paul, Ron, and who else?
>
> Paul
>
> --
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>
> __._,_.___
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Posted by: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>>
>
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